This post is a high-level introduction to Octalysis, the Gamification Framework I created after more than 17 years of Gamification research and and Behavioral Design study. Within a year of publication, Octalysis was organically translated into 16 languages and became required literature in Gamification instruction worldwide.
What is Gamification?
Gamification is design that places the most emphasis on human motivation in the process. In essence, it is Human-Focused Design (as opposed to “function-focused design”).
Gamification is the craft of deriving all the fun and engaging elements found in games and applying them to real-world or productive activities. This process is what I call “Human-Focused Design,” as opposed to “Function-Focused Design.” It’s a design process that optimizes for human motivation in a system, as opposed to pure efficiency.
In our last post we introduced twopassionate Octalysis Primers: Joel and DanielSchmidt from Germany. If you missed it, check it out first.
These brothers, friends and now also business partners, recently started a consulting company named Smithery. They do UX consulting with a focus on digital learning experiences. Shortly after launch they are already working for two clients!
Joel, age 21, is the younger brother of the two.
“After High School I took a year of Bible School with the aim to find myself and figure out what I wanted to do.
I have experience with outdoor experiential education: group activities and team-building exercisesand more and more got the feeling that I should do something with business consulting.”
During the interview we observed that we could really see Joel in a consulting position as he comes across as very disarming and kind.
We had a good laugh together when we mentioned that people would likely accept him telling them what they do wrong and should improve. To which Joel simply replied: “Yeah that’s true“, with a perfect disarming smile.
What is it like to work with your brother?
In April 2021 I felt in my heart that it was time to move on. I quit my job as a scaffolder and started Smithery with Daniel. It is great to work with my brother. We’ve had our difference in the past, but we grew very close together now. We often take a walk in the evening to really talk about stuff. Yeah, it’s really nice to have such a brother”
Daniel adds: “Amen to all of that. And Joel adds so much value to the way I do things. He sees so many things that I would completely miss because I’m all about the structure.Joel is like fluid; he understands my structure but can flow through it like water, making all sorts of connections.“
How did you land on Octalysis Prime?
“When I was still trying to figure out what I wanted to do, Daniel suggested to sign up for Octalysis Prime.
He reasoned that no matter what I would choose, when working with people, understanding motivation will always help you.
Also even if it is just for yourself. It is very useful to learn more about what moves you, what you are hard-wired to do, and how to motivate yourself to do stuff.
What did you get out of Octalysis Prime?
“Actually, the ‘side-stuff’ has helped me the most. I really resonated with the videos on how to improve your life. It has helped me a lot to structure my life better and make better choices.
For the business, the core about Gamification and the Octalysis framework provides a solid foundation. Particularly useful are the videos that cover the importance of thinking through the four phases of the User Journey.
Something great, and fun, about Octalysis is that it provides a language to talk about motivation in a much more meaningful way. We now see Core Drives everywhere! When watching a TV show we often point out to each other things like: “That is a really good Core Drive 2 example!”
Can you tell us something about your Octalysis Certificate?
Of the brothers Schmidt, Joel was the first to earn his prestigious Octalysis Level 1 Certificate.
“It is really fun to analyze a product, like an app or website, and figure out how to make it more fun and engaging. Going through the steps of defining the Octalysis Strategy Dashboard definitely helps. It helps to make clear what is important for the design, and you can refer back to it during the Brainstorming to get the focus right.”
What the Future Holds
We are looking forward to seeing Smithery grow into a recognized consulting business in Germany, and to read your updates in the Slack Community. This is just the beginning.
“Wait, didn’t I already see a blog post about Colin Hahn’s Octalysis Certificate recently?”
Yes, you did, Colin is on a roll! He attained his Level 1 certificate with this submission about Talent Development. And very shortly after submitted for the prestigious Level 2 Octalysis Certificate, which he achieved in one go!
The chosen experience to analyse and improve is Leadership Engine, a program to develop new leaders at Douglas Dynamics.
Douglas Dynamics is a publicly traded manufacturing company. They produce work truck attachments and install attachments onto work truck chasses.
Currently, 230 of the 1,750 employees are in first-level leadership roles: Team leads, Operations managers and Office managers. But the new leader experience at Douglas Dynamics is inconsistent and ad hoc, creating a significant opportunity for the new Leadership Engine program to improve labor productivity, engagement, and turnover.
Colin diligently creates a full Octalysis Strategy Dashboard, capturing all the information required to guide the design process. For Level 2 this also includes Feedback Vehicles, Feedback Mechanics and Rewards.
By creating an Octalysis Graph to analyze the motivation provided by the current experience he identifies the key areas for improvement.
After Brainstorming for features to fill the gaps and make sure the new experience is motivating for the main Player Type, Colin created visuals to explain his ideas. A requirement for the Level 2 Certificate.
This is his proposal for an improved visual dashboard.
Congratulations Colin for reaching this impressive milestone and adding your name to the Hall of Fame! You’ve earned it.
Try out Octalysis Prime for FREE, if you also want to master all the skills required to motivate your employees.
Did you know that two of our Octalysis Primers are from the same town in Germany? What a coincidence, right?
Or maybe not so much, these two handsome men are actually brothers! But Daniel and Joel share much more than a last name, they are both:
– Passionate Gamers – Driven to make learning more fun – Co-owners of Smithery
Smithery – Forging great learning experiences
Unlike their own experience at German university, Joel and Daniel strongly believe that “learning can and should be something fun.”
Armed with knowledge about Human Motivation, Gamification and UX Design, they started a consultancy business. It is cleverly named Smithery; a place where powerful things are forged, by the brothers Schmidt.
They started working for their first client only two days after launch!
“I have worked with many different teams, and luckily we have so far always managed to establish a family like culture. But working with your actual brother is really something different.
The age difference between Joel and myself is quite big, 7,5 years. So when I was growing up and going through early adult struggles, Joel was still a child.
In recent years we have grown very close together, and have established a deep sense of openness and trust. Which I think is absolutely necessary because our working relationship is intertwined with our family relationship.”
How did Octalysis Prime help you start a business?
“I have had six years of study and research around topics like Motivational Psychology and Gameful Design at university. But my understanding of these topics came to a new level by digging into Yu-kai’s work. It is actually even bigger than that, a whole new world opened up!
There is also a lot of merit in being part of the OP Slack community. There are some people in the community who just breathe valuable information. And it is great to share different perspectives with like-minded people.
One repeated lesson that stood out to me is to always come back to thinking about motivation – the difference between Human-focused Design and Function-focused Design. To answer the question: joining Octalysis Prime helped with everything.
Can you tell us something about your Octalysis Certificate?
Daniel mentions that he is not all about certificates, as his main focus is on the intrinsic motivation for learning. But he is very happy that he put in the effort to obtain his prestigious Octalysis Level 1 Certificate:
“It is very helpful to take something that you think you know and have studied well, and then have somebody who really knows look at your work and give you feedback that brings you back to reality.
Because the required quality thresholds of the different certificate levels are really enforced it has real value. And it provides the reassurance for myself that I have learned something well.
I know so many people who managed to get their university degree that I won’t take any advice from. Earning an Octalysis Certificates really means something.”
To wrap up the interview, Daniel shared an amusing story about Octalysis Prime:
He once spent half an hour to click the ‘Defend the Castle’ button in the Challenge Section of the Island exactly 100 times. This made the dragon fly away to patrol for a hundred times, but unfortunately did not reveal any Easter Eggs.
“You may all thank me for testing this so you don’t have to!”
Part 2 Coming Soon!
A big thanks to Daniel for the interview! Read more about Joel Schmidt’s perspective in Part 2. Spoiler alert: “Joel is like fluid“.
The success of last year’s Behavioral Design Masterclass is reflected in the quality of the re-submissions we still receive for the Level 1 Octalysis Certificate.
For example from Jędrzej Lewandowski from the Faculty of medicine, Medical University of Warsaw. He took the received feedback to heart and improved his submission well beyond the certificate requirements!
Jędrzej’s chose to analyze and improve the motivation of the members of Soli Deo to organize events for this Academic Catholic Association. Curious? Check out his submission below!
Congratulations Jędrzej for achieving this milestone and adding your name to the Hall of Fame!
We hope that Soli Deo will implement some of your Brainstorming ideas, especially those that emphasize on the already existing Core Drive 1: Epic Meaning cause.
Now it is clear for me how much more additional value I gain from doing the certificate, gaining the knowledge that I didn’t previously gain from just reading and listening. I am very glad that you spent so much time and gave me the output.
You can find the workshop videos from the Behavioral Design Masterclass, and many more, on Octalysis Prime!
Jun Loayza: [00:00:00] Hey guys. Welcome back to a Octalysis TV. You got Junhere along with Yu-kai
[00:00:03] Chou. Yu-kai is the founder of Octalysis. It’s a great framework for a game of vacation. If you haven’t seen it, definitely check it out. But thank you for coming to the show. And today we’re going to be looking at a website and the goal of this show is to look at a website and to really dissect it for ways that it could really improve improving ways to really drive users, to take an action.
[00:00:24]What I did was I checked my Twitter. I found somebody on there that I followed today. We’re looking at Arvid calls site called Permanent.link.
[00:00:32] And we’re going to be looking at through the Octalysis framework. So a Yu-kai, we’re just going to start off, take a look at the site and what are the first things that come to mind? Ready? GO!
[00:00:42]Yu-kai Chou: [00:00:42] All right. So I do like on this site, it starts with a band message. A broken link is a broken promise. And I have heard before that every link is a promise, a broken link is a broken book. So I like how it has this big, bold text that just tells you there’s a problem.
[00:00:59]And it’s, and it catches my attention stands out. It’s a strong statement and it changes it rotates between the two. No, actually it rotates between a variety of different measures of broken link gets your book flag. But this one is weird ebook analytics and links that never bring.
[00:01:13] Okay. So it has a few rotations of what a broken link is, and it has like core drive, seven unpredictable and curiosity, and also the loss and avoidance. If you see it, it has a lot of that. Almost like a fear message. Oh, look how bad it is. Look how bad it is. And sometimes there’s, this is a positive link for your books that work forever.
[00:01:29] So I think what I don’t like is I think it’s rotating randomly between pain. A broken link is a missed opportunity. It’s a broken book, is this and that. And then in the mid, in the midst of it all sudden it’ll throw in. Analytics tool. And then it’s Hey, things that don’t, that’ll never that never break or something.
[00:01:51] So I feel like there’s a bit of inconsistent about, okay, so what am I trying to get out of it? And then but I think overall it’s pretty strong. So then I immediately then recognize the desired action is,
[00:02:04] Jun Loayza: [00:02:04] Within two years of releasing your book, your certain links were stopped working. I think that’s pretty concrete. Like why within two years my links will stop working. It’s actually CD8 (Loss & Avoidance) I think I, I would have a fear if I’m actually building and writing an ebook that like I’m going to be losing something with all that work that I’m putting in within two years, like all my links were will no longer be relevant.
[00:02:25] Yu-kai Chou: [00:02:25] Yeah, I can actually, I can fully relate to that. I think here is interesting, right? Because here is the first place that tells me this side is for people who write books. All right. Other places I’ve processed that there’s a broken book and all that stuff, but I just thought a broken link has many things I’d broken promise, and it was not fully clear that it’s for book writing.
[00:02:43] And when I said permanent link, I thought, okay, blog posts and all those, the website, permanent links, those are probably useful. And here I see within two years of release per year, external interest up. And I think, again, I super relate to that because my book right now has a bunch of broken links. Publish the book and what did in 2016, maybe 17.
[00:03:02] And and yeah, lots of them are just, some of the companies got acquired. Some of the website got shut down and it makes, even though the knowledge of the book is. Relevant, relatively timeless or at least long lasting the links die first. Sometimes the examples get outdated, but before the examples get outdated as a educational lesson, the the links get out.
[00:03:24] So I can immediately relate to this pain. So I like this, like you said, this one sentence on the top that makes you understand who you are, who the site is targeting, and then also connected to a pain that at least as a publisher I’ve faced. And then again, the desired action sign up for your three-day trial.
[00:03:40] It’s very clear as a desired action. And the secondary action is, Oh we haven’t been motivated enough to
[00:03:45] Jun Loayza: [00:03:45] Oh, okay. I was pretty much sure. You voted motivated me. You said it was really relevant. So I was like, Oh shoot. Okay. I’m in the mindset I I need to sign up right
[00:03:51] Yu-kai Chou: [00:03:51] Oh so yeah, it was one the pain is relevant, but we haven’t figured out what it’s, how it solves it. And but I, what I do like it States very strong in the S on this page. This is the desired action. And like I said, everything around the page is just to motivate that desire to action through those eight core drives.
[00:04:07] And there’s a live demo. So that permanent link redirects your readers to working sites. So you can stay the authority in your niche. And I like how it first says, this is how we do it, but then it’s about an impact, right? Like you can just say, Oh yeah, we’re just a tool. We’re just a tool to, make sure links redirect.
[00:04:24]And it just sounds insignificant, but first you have the big bold texts about, Oh, it’s a broken promise, but here’s this, you can stay the authority in your niche. And I think that’s a very important art. Last time we looked at someone who who was saying, Hey, I can help build, gets you to be more popular on Twitter.
[00:04:41]But the way he presented it, the way he pitched it, Just felt Oh, you get to have your voice, you get to express it. You get to be an authority. And and at the end of the day, we look at it as Oh, so you’re getting me Twitter followers and getting people to pay a little more attention.
[00:04:55] Now, this is the same thing. It’s not just the link. It’s something that helps you stay the author, stay the authority in your niche so you can stay. The authority is that even I’m not questioning the grammar of it. You can stay as the authority in your niche. Wow. Let’s just assume that grammar is correct, but I think it’s a strong way to connect a feature,
[00:05:16] Jun Loayza: [00:05:16] Sorry. I was thinking about that a lot. I think it’s so you can maintain the authority.
[00:05:23] Yu-kai Chou: [00:05:23] no, but I think you’re saying you become, you are the authority as opposed to, you will have the authority. So you are the authority as
[00:05:28] Jun Loayza: [00:05:28] Oh, there should be become, so let’s either become or maintain, either become the authority or you maintain the authority.
[00:05:33]Yu-kai Chou: [00:05:33] I think stay as the authority would work too,
[00:05:35] Jun Loayza: [00:05:35] Okay. Either way.
[00:05:36] Yu-kai Chou: [00:05:36] you’re really big. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. That’s it lets us, but I do again, it’s very important for human focused design or a functional. This is the focus design. Don’t just talk about your feature. Talk about the value proposition of how people’s life will change.
[00:05:49]You can become an authority in your niche or stay as the authority in your niche. So that’s core geometry development, accomplished message. Learn more about your readers. So those are other little features permanently provides insightful book analyst. This is just awkward or it’s like, Oh
[00:06:04] here’s I guess another feature they’re trying to pitch to us. Learn more about your readers. Like where does that come in? And it’s Oh, provides insightful e-book analytics. Okay. I think it’s a little bit strange. I feel like even if just as permanent, it’s also provides some of best in class insightful ebook and the analytics.
[00:06:20] So you can understand your readers or so you can engage them better or something like that maybe is it feels, it would feel like less random. And I learned then, because I, it feels like, learn more about for your readers is reinforcing that top sentence. But it’s not, it’s a totally different feature.
[00:06:36] I feel like it deserves its own icon and an image. So here I don’t think I’m ready to want to do the 30 day trial, but I might check it a lifetime. I scroll down a little bit first and then see if I want to do a live demo. Okay. Here’s a video. And it looks like looks of what we’re doing.
[00:06:50] A person talking about his side. Yeah.
[00:06:54] Jun Loayza: [00:06:54] that’s great, man. Can you hear this?
[00:06:55] Yu-kai Chou: [00:06:55] Okay. No, I cannot hear
[00:06:57] Jun Loayza: [00:06:57] I can hear it, but it looks like you can’t hear it.
[00:07:02] Yu-kai Chou: [00:07:02] Yeah. Okay, cool. And I can go to the side here, but I think let’s drop that. But I, it sounds like it’s just the founder talking about how his sites work or.
[00:07:11] Jun Loayza: [00:07:11] yeah. He’s introduced to introducing the product. I’m sure we can go to a live demo. You want to click on that one?
[00:07:17] Yu-kai Chou: [00:07:17] yeah, let’s get a live demo if you’re sure we can. I feel I, I have a hunch that we can also example data. How about the real thing? What you see here are the actual real-time data of the book. Zero two sold best on 10 on how to put a strip of business overuse these charts in the standard sentence.
[00:07:34] Reasons. And okay, this is cool. And then there’s again, desired action. So that is a good thing. Analytics. So all time clicks, 1,881. Is that a best seller? It’s not a lot of clicks, to be honest.
[00:07:47]Jun Loayza: [00:07:47] I think that’s respectable, man. That’s very respectable. A bestselling title. Yeah. I guess what is, what does it take to be a bestseller? What does it take to be a bestseller?
[00:07:57] Yu-kai Chou: [00:07:57] and these are not, in the normal. Book world. I think he’ll need 10, at least tens of thousands of purchases, right? Book purchases to sell.
[00:08:07] Jun Loayza: [00:08:07] Maybe 10% of that are clicking.
[00:08:09] Yu-kai Chou: [00:08:09] the fifth most of the, a lot of the big ones are 50,000 to 10 to like a hundred thousand.
[00:08:16] Jun Loayza: [00:08:16] How many people are
[00:08:17] Yu-kai Chou: [00:08:17] don’t know. I feel and this is Yeah, unless, yeah.
[00:08:19] So it could be case that his book is best-selling and this is just an ebook that’s hosted on this site and that’s, but again, my whole point is we’re talking about we’re talking about social proof, right? Quarter of five and social influence relatedness. And here it’s Hey, check out this bestseller of this.
[00:08:35] Really cool. Okay. So first of all, I really like the features that this is a real-time analyst is how it actually works. This is not dummy data. This is not example, this is actual real time how this is doing right now. I do this a lot. Okay. But then I was distracted because it says it’s his a real time bestseller.
[00:08:53] And it says all time clicks, right? Not even this today, this week, all times eight. And I did check October, it’s the spin. This has been around for half a year. And then I just think, I don’t know about other people, right? You said it’s respectable. I feel like, Hey, if I’m going to do all this effort and write an ebook and it become the best on this platform, I only get, you know what that’s three, 300, 300 clicks a month, 10 clicks a day.
[00:09:21] I don’t think it’s, I don’t think it’s a lot. And then a number of unreachable links. So it looks like it’s not fixing the link for you. It just identifies you have one broken link in your ebook. And now what I don’t know then is how how does it read my ebook? Is it scanning my ebook the whole time?
[00:09:39] Is it, do I have to write the ebook here on this platform? Now, I’m curious about how the platform works itself, not just the value proposition, but monthly clicks, yearly clicks. Yeah, I think straightforward.
[00:09:53] Jun Loayza: [00:09:53] It gives you the links.
[00:09:57] Yu-kai Chou: [00:09:57] can you sort
[00:09:58]Jun Loayza: [00:09:58] You can’t sort it
[00:10:00] Jun Loayza: [00:10:00] I want to find the one
[00:10:00] Yu-kai Chou: [00:10:00] it says one link is broken, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so my book has like hundreds of links and this would be a hard thing to scroll down. And Eddie, I think he even has see all links on the bottom, so it’s not even all of
[00:10:15] Jun Loayza: [00:10:15] yeah, you’re right.
[00:10:16] Yu-kai Chou: [00:10:16] So
[00:10:17] I just think
[00:10:18] Jun Loayza: [00:10:18] it is, it might just be a preview, I’m not sure how the product works. Maybe next time we’ll have to actually create an account. Maybe we can go through the onboarding actually, eh, at one point how much? Hi. What time are we’re in 12 minutes in you know what, I think that’d be interesting.
[00:10:30] A lot of the time, a lot of
[00:10:31] Yu-kai Chou: [00:10:31] let’s just let’s just,
[00:10:32] Jun Loayza: [00:10:32] we’re looking at the just the first part of it which I think is, has been pretty great in that they have a desired action. They even have a demo of what it looks like. So let’s take the next step. Let’s go through the onboarding.
[00:10:44] So let’s pretend that,
[00:10:45] Yu-kai Chou: [00:10:45] Yeah. We’re ready to dive
[00:10:47] Jun Loayza: [00:10:47] So you wanted to go see all links and
[00:10:49]Yu-kai Chou: [00:10:49] No. Kick click get started now. Click on, get started or to search for three-day
[00:10:52] Jun Loayza: [00:10:52] All right, gets wait. I don’t know if this is my 30 day trial though. Oh yeah, here it
[00:10:56] Yu-kai Chou: [00:10:56] can just click the, get started. All
[00:10:59] Jun Loayza: [00:10:59] let’s sign me up. Per Mo link. I think it’s called
[00:11:05] Yu-kai Chou: [00:11:05] Permanent link much longer.
[00:11:07]Jun Loayza: [00:11:07] Can’t see my password. Can you good?
[00:11:10] Yu-kai Chou: [00:11:10] I see dots.
[00:11:10]Jun Loayza: [00:11:10] You know what I’ve been thinking about this, going to be a better thing than just like email and passwords. Like I’m so tired of creating new emails and passwords all the time. It’s gotta be something better.
[00:11:21]Yu-kai Chou: [00:11:21] It’s an identifier in the security.
[00:11:22] Jun Loayza: [00:11:22] We’re here we are here.
[00:11:24]Yu-kai Chou: [00:11:24] You could eventually do that with, iPhone face scanning or fingerprinting,
[00:11:28] Jun Loayza: [00:11:28] like that. Okay. Let’s do onboarding. So this is the four phases of the user journey. We went through discovery. So we did went through the discovery phase. Now we’re going through the onboarding phase and the onboarding phases for the user to learn the rules of the game. Okay.
[00:11:40] You are now a user Yu-kai. Let’s go through the rules.
[00:11:45] Yu-kai Chou: [00:11:45] All right, so we’re here and it just says welcome. Let’s get started first creative project. I like how one thing I like is that the create new project is a blue
[00:11:55] Jun Loayza: [00:11:55] also like with this chat thing, it’s
[00:11:56] Yu-kai Chou: [00:11:56] covered. Yeah. Yeah. It’s covered by the
[00:11:59] Jun Loayza: [00:11:59] there it is there
[00:11:59] Yu-kai Chou: [00:11:59] that’s sometimes just, yeah, sometimes just two technologies.
[00:12:02] Jun Loayza: [00:12:02] it’s the same color too, like blends in, but yeah. What are you going to do?
[00:12:05] Yu-kai Chou: [00:12:05] Yeah. Yeah. I don’t feel very motivated to watch that video right now and also feels like I’ve already seen it.
[00:12:13] Jun Loayza: [00:12:13] I think it was the same on the homepage. I think it’s
[00:12:15] Yu-kai Chou: [00:12:15] discovery page. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s awkward. Okay. So let’s just create a new project. Cause that’s the only thing it wants us to do. All right. Project thing, a project can be a book, a presentation. Let’s just say oncolysis prime. Yeah. All right. And then description, whatever, all this favor.
[00:12:35] Jun Loayza: [00:12:35] All right. That’s cool.
[00:12:37] Yu-kai Chou: [00:12:37] Okay. And there’s a fallback URL,
[00:12:38] Jun Loayza: [00:12:38] just call
[00:12:39] Yu-kai Chou: [00:12:39] every time your link
[00:12:40] Jun Loayza: [00:12:40] sorry for cutting you off there you cut. I just want to call out that we’re able to do all of this with a free trial without even having to put in the credit card. So I think that’s a big plus to get the user, this foot in the door, get them invested in the product, put all, put all the information there without the friction of putting the credit card, you will get the dropout, right?
[00:12:58] Like some people they’ll set it up and then they’ll never put in their credit card, but I think more people are going to be invested, get their foot in the door, get started, and then later possibly put in their credit card.
[00:13:08]Yu-kai Chou: [00:13:08] It’s an interesting discussion, right? I remember for octopus is prime. When you ha you, when you sold enough in the discovery phase, when they see, Oh, there’s a tremendous amount of value, they’d rather pay $1 to, as a trial. And then we see that. On the second month, a lot of people start paying, right?
[00:13:26] Because the thing about the, your opt in, into a $1, and then you have to opt out to start paying 50. So we actually, I believe we saw higher conversion rates at two $50, but the negative side of it is that a lot of people, two, three months later get a bit upset. Some of them, not a lot, but a good amount of says, Hey, I didn’t realize it was paying for this.
[00:13:45] Hey, give me my money back. And we always refund them. We don’t want to
[00:13:47] Jun Loayza: [00:13:47] You’re talking about.
[00:13:49] Yu-kai Chou: [00:13:49] They don’t feel
[00:13:49] Jun Loayza: [00:13:49] For the listeners who don’t know is the $1 sign up challenge. Basically what we did is we created a way for you to have to answer a bunch of questions. And once you get that correct, not everyone gets it. Correct. It’s actually difficult. But if you’re able to get that, make that correct.
[00:14:03]Then what ends up happening is now you have the. Opportunity to try our product for $1. Normally it’s $50 a month. You were able to try it for $1. And then we, it was a pretty good conversion rate, I think, from getting the $1 up to converting to $50. But like you said, you get some people who become like zombies, they didn’t realize that they would automatically convert
[00:14:23] Yu-kai Chou: [00:14:23] Yeah, there’s another disadvantage, which is once that cohort ends, like the people decide to. Do not do it either because they don’t wanna play the $1 or they cancel the $1 before the $50 they’re gone. That wave is gone. They’re not going to come back. Four. So then we switched to a freemium this, you get to try it out. And when it’s time you have to pay. And so the nice thing is that when people pay, they choose to pay them. Okay. I’m putting my credit card to pay full price now that she used to pray. So no one’s going to. No one can say that, they, they didn’t realize they were going to pay.
[00:14:53]But the second advantage is that all your free users over time, when they, when you put the block on the block, they can pay. So it could be people who sign up for free kind of six months ago, and then they might be upgrading two years ago. They could be there’s a whole pool of free users are people could potentially upgrade because you got them to use the casual version.
[00:15:14] And if the free the trial has enough of a great experience, then. I think now this is a bit of a hybrid. It says, Hey, you can play with it as much as you want for 30 days without giving a credit card. And I think it wants to get us to be attached, once we start using, once we embedding the links and permanent links then we were stuck, then we have the sunk costs like, Oh, I don’t want to lose all this work. Or like I’ve already done work into it and I can’t take it out. So I think they’re possibly betting on that. Okay. So let’s see how they set this up. Oh, here they can also have like more emotional imagery. Of like book success.
[00:15:46]And they should, I always recommend sprinkly sprinkling as many social proof testimonials as possible. So Hey, this is awesome. This is amazing to do that. Like I signed this up and it changed my life. I think this is something that we should see it in more places
[00:15:59] Jun Loayza: [00:15:59] do you mean like a testimonial here along the way?
[00:16:02] Yu-kai Chou: [00:16:02] Yeah, sprinkle it everywhere. Every time. There’s dessert action, social proof discovery page Hey, I signed up to permanent link and my life changed, hey, creating this, like you want to continue to reinforce that it can, you could almost never go wrong with it. Just having quotes of people saying this was a great thing. Yeah. And then the more specific, the better, if he just says Bob happy customer, That’s usually not as believable, as Bob Jennison, dad of three living in Ohio. I know it even better author of this book. Then it’s Oh, there has to be a real person.
[00:16:35] Jun Loayza: [00:16:35] think something you also write about you cause getting to a wind state. So for every step along the way, or for every step to get to the wind state, you have drop-off and I don’t think we’ve hit a Winstate yet. We basically signed up. We are now trying to get to the Wednesday, which I think is getting, figuring out which of my links are broken.
[00:16:53] So we’re trying to get there. And so the good thing is, I think I see here day zero 30. So I understand, how many of these I have left, but I also don’t understand how many steps I have to take to get to the wind state.
[00:17:05] Yu-kai Chou: [00:17:05] Yeah, technically should be the moment you create a new project because once we finished this, like we’ve entering all this information. The next screen should just make us feel. Wow. So happy. So maybe if we can just fill out this and then the, and then it’ll say your book has 29 broken links and these are the broken links.
[00:17:22]Suddenly that then you to see them
[00:17:23] Jun Loayza: [00:17:23] All right. So I’m entering this information. Let’s go to create others easy. So just one step project created now, what do I do? I know I have to, so now I manually add the links. What I thought was going to happen? I would be able to link my ebook and then it would pull the links automatically.
[00:17:40] Yu-kai Chou: [00:17:40] yeah. Like it’ll scan your whole ebook.
[00:17:42] Jun Loayza: [00:17:42] Yeah. Yeah. That’s what I was hoping.
[00:17:43] Yu-kai Chou: [00:17:43] But now it’s every link as of now, just every link you do,
[00:17:46] Jun Loayza: [00:17:46] This is interesting. You kinda, you said you have hundreds of links. How would you feasibly Adam here?
[00:17:52] Yu-kai Chou: [00:17:52] I would not use the service now that I see this, it works this way.
[00:17:55]Jun Loayza: [00:17:55] Okay let’s see. Let’s add your leg. Let’s see what happens. This is the Euro. You want your readers to see link your real friend? Wait, hold on.
[00:18:04]Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:04] Yeah. This basically says that when I’m writing my book, every link needs to have a backup link. All right. And it’s annoying because the backup link could also expire in two years.
[00:18:16] Jun Loayza: [00:18:16] I thought what was going to happen again? We didn’t watch the video. But I thought what was going to happen is I thought it was going to pull all of my. All of the ebook links automatically and then create recommended links in case it fails. Based on that link.
[00:18:30] Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:30] What I should do it should say, upload your PDF or upload your, I forgot what the add the Kindle file is. Yeah. Upload your. As a KTP
[00:18:40] Jun Loayza: [00:18:40] but I think that’s what it does. Look look at this adaptive linking, right? This is
[00:18:44] Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:44] no, let’s just means like, how would you,
[00:18:46] Jun Loayza: [00:18:46] No, you leave it empty. No, you leave it empty, leave empty for adaptive linking.
[00:18:51] Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:51] Okay.
[00:18:52] Jun Loayza: [00:18:52] I think that’s what it does.
[00:18:53]Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:53] But it’s, you manually entered this one link, which means you have to enter all the links in your book. It doesn’t
[00:18:58] Jun Loayza: [00:18:58] let’s see what happens. Oh, wait, hold on. Thank you off. I don’t know what this is. Hello.
[00:19:08] Yu-kai Chou: [00:19:08] Hello. Okay. So
[00:19:11] Jun Loayza: [00:19:11] it’s a broken link. So I, so you can’t see my screen, I’d have to change it, but it goes to a broken link, but I’m not sure. I’m not sure what happens.
[00:19:21] Yu-kai Chou: [00:19:21] figured it out
[00:19:21] Jun Loayza: [00:19:21] I’m not sure what adaptive
[00:19:22] Yu-kai Chou: [00:19:22] So I think what it is, I think the service is like a tiny Euro or a Bitly that tracks clicks. But it also checks automatic. It checks is accurate. Are the links alive or not, or is it dead? I think that’s all it is. Like you create this Bitly link and then you put that Bitly link into your book.
[00:19:43] Jun Loayza: [00:19:43] Yeah. Yeah. I see what you’re saying. I don’t know. Again, we haven’t seen the video and not everyone who
[00:19:49] Yu-kai Chou: [00:19:49] it’s guaranteeing that. Yeah. So I think it’s like guaranteeing, even though the link you put into your book would fail, the Bitly link will never fail. Let’s presume our tiny URL. The Bitly link will never fail because it will always redirect to something else,
[00:20:05] Jun Loayza: [00:20:05] Or it’s not just that, but you could also change it later on. If it does fail, you can come back here and you can change it later on. You can change that redirection.
[00:20:10] Yu-kai Chou: [00:20:10] Yeah.
[00:20:11] Yeah. When it’s adaptive, do you know, how does it figure out what to you Redirect it does that. Does it explain the rules somewhere?
[00:20:17] Jun Loayza: [00:20:17] Can you share? We build permanently because we need it for our own projects. Sorry. I’m just gonna quickly scroll through this know. I’m sure we could find it. But I think that maybe that’s one thing to call I don’t know how adaptive linking works and we haven’t seen the video. Like maybe we should watch it to learn, but like there, there likely should be a way to learn how adaptive Lincoln works without necessarily watching the video.
[00:20:39]Not, everyone’s going to watch the video.
[00:20:40]Yu-kai Chou: [00:20:40] What I would do. I would set a design back to the game, patient scarcity and unlocks, but I would, in that interface, I would create some kind of Hey, zero out of 10 or one of them. Once you create 10 links. You will unlock the extra cool feature. Like now you can see special analytics, right?
[00:20:59] So it’s Oh, I like, cause right now we’re curious. And we satisfied our curiosity. So I think we feel like we’re done, but if it says, Hey, you are like, you got one out of 10 before you unlock a new feature, then that curiosity might get us to do more of this. And once we get 10. We might see again, new features that are cool potentially, but then it’s we have built more investment.
[00:21:19] We have more sun costs and we’re like, okay. And we have more muscle memory, more habit of using this. And so okay, I guess let’s we already made 10 and let’s just keep using this now. So I would probably think about a
[00:21:30] Jun Loayza: [00:21:30] I really liked that. I think that’s a good point. You can have some kind of progress bar to, to communicate to the user, like what is the next desired action? Like you actually have to get to 10 links added in order to get to the next step. And that drives me to complete it. What is
[00:21:46] Yu-kai Chou: [00:21:46] Yeah. And also, since we assume every reader wants everyone to read their book, or every writer wants everyone to read their book. They could have a cause, on the left side, there’s not much, it’s very minimum MVP right now. Projects, nothing else. There could be some kind of like most popular links, our leaderboard of links.
[00:22:03] It’s this is, this one has 500 clicks today. This one has 400 clicks and it’s just get people to drive and click on those links, even though. And then of course, when you click on the links, people that doesn’t mean people read the books, right? Because the book links to those places, but maybe it’ll say, this link is most click link
[00:22:20] is from
[00:22:21] Jun Loayza: [00:22:21] this book. What would be the purpose of that though? Would that be just another social proof? Oh, I know other people are using it as well.
[00:22:26]Yu-kai Chou: [00:22:26] I’m just curious, just like front page of Reddit, I’m just like, Hey, whatever. What is everyone curious about? Because if you’re reading a book, usually don’t want interruption. You want to just keep going forward. If you click on the link, that means that, that was so interesting.
[00:22:39] You want to disrupt your reading experience and go to the link or it’s so like shocking, like it’s like shocking stat. Did you know that, 97% of people die from eating. I dunno, hairballs. And you’re like, what the hell? That makes no sense. And then there’s a link, right? So you want to click on the link.
[00:22:58] So it’s like, what’s the most shocking thing. And just get people to have visually come back to this and be more interested in talking about it. I think, because right now it does feel like, Oh, that’s it has this little feature and there’s nothing more that makes draws me back.
[00:23:12] Jun Loayza: [00:23:12] so let’s do one more thing. Before we stop finish this, let’s look at the pricing tiers to take a look at that through an Octalysis lens.
[00:23:20]Yu-kai Chou: [00:23:20] all right. For those who don’t yet have a budget for their links,
[00:23:27] Jun Loayza: [00:23:27] Oh, that’s
[00:23:27] Yu-kai Chou: [00:23:27] what does it have? Links with permit link branding. Your readers, wait five seconds for redirection, Whoa, basic analytics, one project with up to 25 permanently, which is not that much, many projects. And wow. This is pretty harsh, 25 only.
[00:23:44] And all of them show it now.
[00:23:45] Jun Loayza: [00:23:45] Out really quick? The thing that stands out to me is I don’t know where I’m being pointed to. It’s like the gray one is actually the one that’s. Or the zero, the free one is a different color. So maybe that’s attracting me a little bit, but usually when I see these pricing tiers, I see some kind of a desert Oasis or basically it’s drawing me to the site is telling me which one I should be focusing on. But right now it’s not maybe here like this two months for
[00:24:13] Yu-kai Chou: [00:24:13] best value.
[00:24:15] Jun Loayza: [00:24:15] Usually they start also start off in the annual right. To make sure that more people get on the annual, but this one’s by default getting me on the monthly.
[00:24:23] Yu-kai Chou: [00:24:23] Oh, really? I think default monthly is better because if you look at yearly first, that number might shock you.
[00:24:31] Jun Loayza: [00:24:31] That’s true.
[00:24:32] Yu-kai Chou: [00:24:32] Yeah.
[00:24:32] Jun Loayza: [00:24:32] I’ve seen most
[00:24:33] Yu-kai Chou: [00:24:33] see, Oh, it’s $10 a month and you save like you saved money when you switch.
[00:24:39] Jun Loayza: [00:24:39] All right let’s continue.
[00:24:42] Yu-kai Chou: [00:24:42] I’ll tell you that if I’m actually just discovering what this does, I really hate yearly because the commitment before I even know if I want it right. If I already tried it so free trial, and I know I like it. I don’t know about you. Do you usually, if you subscribe to any service, do you like monthly or
[00:24:57] Jun Loayza: [00:24:57] all I can tell you Riverside, they have a yearly or monthly option. I do monthly. I just did a D script. They have yearly and monthly. I did monthly, so I always do monthly because I never know if I’m gonna need to stop using it the next two, three months. So I always do
[00:25:10] Yu-kai Chou: [00:25:10] yeah. And usually yearly, it’s Oh, it’s the price of nine months. So most of the time we don’t know if we want to use it for nine months straight. Yeah. And also like there’s a few things like XSplit. Which is, adding cool background. When you do meetings. I bought yearly.
[00:25:25] I had might’ve bought even bought a lifetime because it’s like I’m going to be doing way it’s part of my life. I’m going to be doing a lot of video meetings, especially with COVID, but even beyond that, so I figured I needed, I’m just probably just gonna invest towards, but it’s only after I’ve realized it has features that no one else has.
[00:25:42] And it has like a super high, unique value proposition. Okay. So we want you to free let’s look at the publisher then the most amount of things, so that customizable instantly redirected adapted links. Okay. Per link privacy, first analytics. So before it’s not per link. It’s aggregate, and and it’s not privacy first. What does the privacy first mean? And why is it good? Like what’s around the privacy second. And what is privacy first? Like first above everything else. What’s everything else. Anyway that’s, it’s not clear that this is what I need and I’d pay for anyway notifications when your L’s break.
[00:26:18]That should be. The basic value proposition, right? Like I would put in a free plan by
[00:26:24] Jun Loayza: [00:26:24] I think all of them
[00:26:25] Yu-kai Chou: [00:26:25] notifications. When your outbreak no, not the free one, not the free one, not the free one,
[00:26:30] Jun Loayza: [00:26:30] I see.
[00:26:31] Yu-kai Chou: [00:26:31] but what I would do is I would put one notification when you’re always breaking the free one. So one day you get Oh, you’re just, you’re your link just broke.
[00:26:42] Would you like to upgrade now to track all of your links? So I would check with one and then, because when one breaks, you scared, right? You’re like, Oh crap. And then you would probably prepare that moment to make sure it watches out for the other
[00:26:54] Jun Loayza: [00:26:54] can I just say, I feel
[00:26:54]Like these multiple tiers aren’t needed. I feel like having too many tiers requires me to read and look through all these bullet points. And if I just want to, if I just want to pay right now, you already know how many links I have. You should just tell me how much I have to pay.
[00:27:10] It’s like MailChimp, right? W with MailChimp, you just pay based on your tier. And I think this one you should probably based on your tier as well, I’ve only put a one link like mine by relevant ones, either free or $5. Like for these other ones, probably not as much. Maybe there should be some kind of a meet or something that if I, it’s like, Hey, find out how much you pay.
[00:27:27] If you put in a thousand links and you can bring it up and show you how much you pay for that.
[00:27:31]Yu-kai Chou: [00:27:31] Yeah they’re pretty big price jump zero to five, five, 10, 10, and 15. But each one just adds a bit more from the last teams. So five projects versus one project working on their legacy for authors who want their first see and stay successful. Yeah. So one project with hundred links, five projects, 505 custom domains, cross project analytics, advanced reporting, backup and export features for this have shelves full of books to take care of for a publisher.
[00:28:02] Okay. So I just realized they had called they have names, beginners professionals and publishers. Yeah. So I guess there are different personas. I don’t fully mind that they have these four tiers, but I just feel like. It’s not, I can only identify that it’s one book, five books and 50 books. But the other stuff below, I can’t tell how valuable that is.
[00:28:25] Cross project analysts. Hey, you gave me a example. The demo that we saw from the live project is that cross project analytic insight. Is that basic analytics or is it advanced reporting? I have no idea. So if that was already if we w what we just saw was what they call full analytics insights.
[00:28:49] Jun Loayza: [00:28:49] Nice. Okay. Cool.
[00:28:52] Yu-kai Chou: [00:28:52] after I leave money to leave money on the table.
[00:28:57] Jun Loayza: [00:28:57] All right.
[00:29:00] Yu-kai Chou: [00:29:00] I actually go to upgrade account on the
[00:29:02]Jun Loayza: [00:29:02] It’s the same. That’s where I
[00:29:03] Yu-kai Chou: [00:29:03] what, like the CRA the credit card. Oh, okay.
[00:29:06] Jun Loayza: [00:29:06] So you mean, if I subscribe, I can go to
[00:29:07] Yu-kai Chou: [00:29:07] right. Let’s let’s yeah. Yeah. Let’s just see what kind of credit card
[00:29:11] Jun Loayza: [00:29:11] I think they’re using Stripe or paddle.
[00:29:14] Yu-kai Chou: [00:29:14] Where are you located? Oh, this is interesting at first ask for your zip code. And that seems like a, like really unintimidating.
[00:29:22] Thank you, you put in, and then it’s okay how would you want to do this?
[00:29:26] Jun Loayza: [00:29:26] are they texting me?
[00:29:27] Yu-kai Chou: [00:29:27] Oh, and then it has an excuse. Oh, it’s a zero
[00:29:30]Jun Loayza: [00:29:30] Yeah, but.
[00:29:31] Yu-kai Chou: [00:29:31] zero tax. There’s some S state sales tax. If you’re selling to the same state, then you have to pay some taxes,
[00:29:37] Jun Loayza: [00:29:37] I’ve never seen this ever in any other website about Texas, like for a SAS product, I’ve never seen the Texas.
[00:29:46] Yu-kai Chou: [00:29:46] Yeah, it’s uncommon, but technically I think people should pay taxes when they’re in this from the same state. Okay. Pretty sure I do. I don’t know. Have you seen many of these interfaces where you put in the zip code first
[00:29:57] before? Anything
[00:29:57] Jun Loayza: [00:29:57] the first time. That’s what I’m saying. I think they’re calculating the taxes, but I’ve never seen that.
[00:30:01]Yu-kai Chou: [00:30:01] Yeah. I just think I put in the zip code is an interesting way to just cause usually people see credit card, like nah, maybe next time or
[00:30:08]Jun Loayza: [00:30:08] That was weird to me because seeing the zip code, I’m like, I’m not really getting anything shipped to me. So that was a little jarring for me.
[00:30:17] Yu-kai Chou: [00:30:17] okay.
[00:30:18] Jun Loayza: [00:30:18] It does explain it down here
[00:30:19]Yu-kai Chou: [00:30:19] It didn’t seem
[00:30:19] to pan
[00:30:20] Jun Loayza: [00:30:20] here, it says your purchase may be subject to sales tax and we’ll automatically never.
[00:30:23]Yeah, they’re just checking if I’m subject to sales tax. I would just say, I don’t know. It seems like they’re using paddle to do this. If there was, like you said at any point, if you could add the testimonials, some kind of CD five social proof, I think would be here to push me along the way.
[00:30:39] Yu-kai Chou: [00:30:39] yeah, I purchased the professional plan and it made my book successful.
[00:30:46] Jun Loayza: [00:30:46] You know what I’d love. I’d love links to people’s eBooks that are using it to see how it works.
[00:30:52] Yu-kai Chou: [00:30:52] Links to people’s eBooks.
[00:30:54] Jun Loayza: [00:30:54] you said, right? There was a place
[00:30:55]Yu-kai Chou: [00:30:55] But they aren’t, but they w they’re not links to people’s eBooks are links to that
[00:31:00] Jun Loayza: [00:31:00] I’m saying like
[00:31:01] Yu-kai Chou: [00:31:01] out to
[00:31:01] Jun Loayza: [00:31:01] people’s eBooks, I would go to their eBooks and read it and then click on the links to see how it works. Like more of that social proof or maybe a
[00:31:10] Yu-kai Chou: [00:31:10] Also one thing I’m curious about. He talked about how, they recreated this tool to help themselves. Apparently because they have many books Hey, I want to see, what is your book? What is your credibility? I go to about us. Good about us in the
[00:31:22] Jun Loayza: [00:31:22] Oh, okay.
[00:31:24] Yu-kai Chou: [00:31:24] like credibility, right?
[00:31:25] What’s your
[00:31:25] credit? Are you a bestselling author?
[00:31:27]Jun Loayza: [00:31:27] That’s a,
[00:31:27] Yu-kai Chou: [00:31:27] He look, he looks sharp in this one picture. Yeah, but the video that we played with him on the left bottom didn’t. Isn’t as sharp as this one, let’s just
[00:31:37] Jun Loayza: [00:31:37] I thought it was good.
[00:31:40] Yu-kai Chou: [00:31:40] I hear his voice. So maybe his, he sounded charming. Okay. So who, I’m an author software?
[00:31:46] software service offers the solution probably better feels strongly in the field of my life. Oh, so here’s the guy who sold zero to sold. Okay. So I just, so we said yes. Okay. I didn’t know it was like him. I thought it was like just another bestseller on the plan, like the best seller on the platform.
[00:32:04]Okay. Sorry. I made fun of you. My bad. I, obviously
[00:32:08] the link
[00:32:08] Jun Loayza: [00:32:08] man, you’re just
[00:32:08] Yu-kai Chou: [00:32:08] hired. I think everyone agreed. Yeah. I think everyone agrees. I noticed that my link started malfunctioning. That was the first time I’ve learned that constant thing, not a product got fag were just complaining and didn’t have time to build something solid.
[00:32:20] I remember. Yeah. Yeah. That’s actually what I want to do. I want to just remove that clickable link. I think what I do is speaks to my pain that I also have. It’s not fun to have no leaks in a book that’s supposed to teach these meaningful things about connected world around them, but I’ve wrote can quickly set up custom redirection.
[00:32:34]Yeah, it’s really not quick to send them, like I had have to create all of them and replace them in my
[00:32:40]Jun Loayza: [00:32:40] It’s
[00:32:40] Yu-kai Chou: [00:32:40] very hard.
[00:32:41] Jun Loayza: [00:32:41] probably V2 of this, right? This is probably his MVP (Minimum Via Product) and V2 (version 2). You just link to the ebook and you extract all the links.
[00:32:49] Yu-kai Chou: [00:32:49] Yeah, I th I feel like it would be more applicable if I’m starting to start in a bride, my book, and every link I put in, I use this first. I feel like it’s not practical for me to have a book that’s already written and then go and replace them one by one. And still, even in the first case, I don’t know if I want to deal with that hassle.
[00:33:07]Jun Loayza: [00:33:07] Cool. All right. I think that’s it. We’re gonna end it here. Thanks guys also. Thanks for thanks to Arvid . Actually, he didn’t really want until their site. We just ahead and did it, so I’ll message him and let’s see what he thinks. But either way it was a great man. Thanks Yu-kai. And everyone PRIME ON man. Cool.
[00:00:00] Jun Loayza: [00:00:00] Hey, Yu-kai how’s it going?
[00:00:02] Yu-kai Chou: [00:00:02] Good. How are you Jun?
[00:00:04] Jun Loayza: [00:00:04] I’m doing very well. So, I want to tell you a little bit about why I wanted to do this and what I think the audience people are going to get value from it. So I think what you do Yu-kai, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think what you do is you make better. Experiences or human experiences. So you take something that maybe is a little boring, maybe optimize for a robot or just the system, and then you make it more human.
[00:00:29] So that it’s optimized for people. Is that correct?
[00:00:31] Yu-kai Chou: [00:00:31] Yeah. More or less you could say I do gameful UX. To drive desired actions.
[00:00:37]Jun Loayza: [00:00:37] Very nice. Okay. So what I thought would be cool is if we go online and we take a look at certain products and figure out either what they’re doing well, or even better, what are ways that they can actually improve their product. And I was thinking we could start with the big. Players like HubSpot or MailChimp or all these other ones, but I thought it’d be interesting to go for the smaller players.
[00:01:00] [00:00:59] So I don’t, I’m not sure if you know, you could, but I follow a bunch of people on Twitter that are building cool products and maybe it didn’t, we’ll have a team of marketers or a team of UX designers to improve their experience. So maybe we can go in there and help them out and maybe it helps them
[00:01:15] Yu-kai Chou: [00:01:15] Sure.
[00:01:15] Jun Loayza: [00:01:15] and maybe it helps the people listening to this right.
[00:01:17] To see how they can improve the products themselves. So that sound pretty good.
[00:01:21] Yu-kai Chou: [00:01:21] Yeah. Let’s do an experience audit.
[00:01:23]Jun Loayza: [00:01:23] So here’s a bunch of people follow. I’m going to choose one at random. Does that sound good?
[00:01:28] Yu-kai Chou: [00:01:28] yep.
[00:01:28] Jun Loayza: [00:01:28] Let’s go with this guy. So, Kevin I started talking to him a little bit on Twitter is building some pretty cool things.
[00:01:33] And specifically he’s doing he’s building public lab. So let’s take a look at that. I don’t think you can see this sprint. I’m going to have to figure out how the actual share screen works. All right. Public lab. Here we go. We are a non public lab. Okay. So I think we can start here. Let’s put on your gameful design hat. All right. I’m going to put it on you. And [00:02:00] with that let’s start going for it.
[00:02:01] So public lab be part of the public movement building and public, develop your authentic public voice and grow your product in 30 days. And we’ll go through the whole onboarding. So, okay. Some quick things that come stand out to you above the fold.
[00:02:13] Yu-kai Chou: [00:02:13] okay. So the big thing, and my work is that. Every screen needs to have a desired action. So when we do design, we start with the desired action. So we’d say, what is the desired on this screen was the next one. What is the next one? And that desired action needs to be so clear that even if it’s in a foreign language, people just want to click on it.
[00:02:33] The brain feels a little uncomfortable, not clicking on that. So if there’s a huge big button that says, click me, right. If you’re just going to go into the flow, you’ll click it. You’ll have to think actually hard to say no, I just want to click this little link that says no, thank you. And when I first look at this screen, what to, what jumps out at me is there’s no clear desired action besides a login.
[00:02:54] Right. And I doubt at our face of log-in, as, for later use scaffolding phase, it is four phases [00:03:00] of the user experience journey. There’s discovery phase. Why, what motivates people to sign up onboarding their first day journey? How do they learn the rules and tools to play the game scaffolded coming back every day, every week, every month or 10 times a day, whatever your design is.
[00:03:13] And the end game, how do you design for the veteran players? And so login would be the desired action for the scaffolding player. It’s, you know, I think they’re already motivated. They just need a quick way to get there. That’s fine. See it here. It doesn’t even ask you how to suck. Yeah. Yeah. You can’t even sign up.
[00:03:28] So the first thing is it’s unclear, right? How do you sign up? And so usually when we do UX design and we would first stamp a desired action, everything around you see. Is about increasing motivation of that desired action through those eight core drives, because we know none of these eight quarters that they’re, there’s zero motivation, no behavior, it happens.
[00:03:49] And if it does not increase motivation towards the desired action, then it’s actually a waste of space. Ideally should throw it away. Some things you have to have like profile, you know, all this stuff, [00:04:00] but I technically, if it doesn’t increase your desire to action, you throw it away. So here I’m pretty sure if you scroll down, there’s probably going to be a call to action.
[00:04:07] What’s it? I mean, to not be like really weird, right? Yeah, this, yeah, this is not very clear as like I’ve signed up to email this, so, so let’s see. So the strategy here is whatever it’s showing above should build up so much motivation that I want to just put in my email and see a preview of it.
[00:04:23] So, so let’s go and SLS analyze what’s above.
[00:04:26] Jun Loayza: [00:04:26] You know what it could be. I mean, again, I don’t know enough of this product yet. I mean, so we’re both actually going through this onboarding phase together, but it could be maybe it’s not yet ready, although there is a login. So basically you want to enter the community. What’s not what I’m not sure is the community Twitter are you part of a Twitter list or something like that to be a part of the community?
[00:04:45] Yu-kai Chou: [00:04:45] Yeah. So, so I’m just trying to see what core drives are in our head here. So, first of all, desired actions, it’s not super clear. That’s the big problem for any type of behavioral design. If you go to the top again, so it appeals to, you know, core drive, five social influence [00:05:00] keeps talking about joining the community.
[00:05:01]Public movement, right. A lot of core drive, five social influence. But then it’s well, what is my authentic public voice of? What does that mean? And how does that connect to growing my product? Mo I think there’s not a complete connection between authentic public voice versus growing my product.
[00:05:16] Right. One seems like I’m becoming some kind of personal expert thought leader in a way. The other is hand building a a product and I’m growing it. So. That it hasn’t made that connection more. So I’m going to read a bit lower. So be part of a community of indie. So okay. Community creators, solopreneurs who share transparently and comparable groaning.
[00:05:36] So, and now it seems to me, again, this is a, just a community like a Slack, immediate Twitter community, a bunch of people who just share ideas with each other. And it’s unclear about what is the actual business. Yes.
[00:05:49] Jun Loayza: [00:05:49] okay. Yeah. And then here, it’s also like you said, no seat, no call to action. And then here it’s if you’re not ready yet, but I am ready. What if I am ready?
[00:05:56]Yu-kai Chou: [00:05:56] There’s no, if you’re ready per body, there’s [00:06:00] no way for you to actually act on that readiness. Right. And what’s interesting is there is some debate about a call to actions, right? We call them DAS desired actions. On the top of the side when no one’s ready. Right. They have to learn what it is yet.
[00:06:13] So why put it there? Why not? Usually people are ready when you go down, you see the value proposition, but from a psychological standpoint, if you first see that button there at the top, even if no one interacts with it, it anchors the question. Should I sign up? Let’s say, what should I do this desired action.
[00:06:28] And then everything you look at it is about answering that question. Oh, maybe I want to do it more or maybe I do want it more. So when you get to the bottom, Called same desired action button. You’re ready to do it, but if you don’t see it on top, that question is in your head. And therefore it’s a lot, it’s the bottom button is less effective.
[00:06:45] So again, this has none of that. But we can keep going because I like immediately below it, it says are you like Tom or something that brings out my curiosity well, you know, I’m not ready to sign up. Yeah. And Tom looks like, I don’t know. Does [00:07:00] he look.
[00:07:00] Jun Loayza: [00:07:00] I think he’s having breakfast.
[00:07:01] Yu-kai Chou: [00:07:01] Do you think he looks successful?
[00:07:03] Does he have, do you think he looks happy? I can.
[00:07:06] Jun Loayza: [00:07:06] he looks a little sad to me.
[00:07:08] Yu-kai Chou: [00:07:08] Yeah. Is, it does either his pitch. I’m not going to read the text verse, cause I’m curious about this. Either his saying, look, Tom, being so casual, just being on his breakfast table and is making so much money as being so successful as growing his product.
[00:07:23] Right. So easy. It’s talking about how easy it is. That’s one aspect. The other aspect is. Hey, look, Tom is just there trying to figure out how to make a better life for himself and his, he couldn’t figure it out. So it was just like being a little sad. So let’s look at the text. Tom is working hard as product, but he needs more.
[00:07:38] traction. That’s the second case he needs more traction. Yeah. Sort of means things about others. Grown an audience on Twitter and wants to give a track. Hey, so this is about growing at Twitter audience. See, at this moment on the small fine tax, we were kind of like detective trying to piece together what this does.
[00:07:54] Right. And it shouldn’t. It shouldn’t be so hard to do that. He finds many builders who are [00:08:00] sharing good content, growing followers and get lots of buzz for the products that they’re building. This is a little just, how do they do it? How do they share? Good content. Okay. Also, are you also dreaming about figuring out Twitter to feel the company product?
[00:08:10] Okay. So now I fully understand that this is about improving your marketing on Twitter. Hence your. Finding your authentic voice on Twitter, and therefore you’re doing better marketing for your product, which hence has grown your product. Right. And I don’t think we’re, you know, we’re like people who don’t understand this industry and it took us this long to figure this out.
[00:08:32] Like we’re kind of in the target audience. Right? So, go up a bit. Let’s look at what’s the next thing they presented introducing building and public. So now it’s this is our product building
[00:08:43] Jun Loayza: [00:08:43] it’s. If I can just jump in there really quick, it looks to me like this is like a long landing page, right. So he’s trying to build a story on what the pain is and then how you’re going to get there. And I think, you know, one quick thing that stands out there though is in the beginning, let’s say if I was ready to, I don’t really know where to go.
[00:08:59] So I think for [00:09:00] those people that are ready, maybe a CTA there. And then now he’s trying to build a story of you know, this is the target market is Tom he’s building a product, but he doesn’t have enough. Marketing or R or brand or emphasis behind it for people don’t know his product.
[00:09:14] So then this is the solution, I guess. Right? Introducing, building and public, essentially.
[00:09:20] Yu-kai Chou: [00:09:20] while you’re building a product company of you’re going to through countless. Okay. But is this about doing Twitter followership and ensuring the business you attract followers with an audience around this becomes key? You’re using transfers to looping your followers, welfare building of step-by-step.
[00:09:34] So, okay. So I think he is. Basically some kind of community program on getting people to become awesome at Twitter. So that therefore at this point I would actually just want to look at his Twitter is he actually doing an amazing job on Twitter, right?
[00:09:48] Jun Loayza: [00:09:48] Well, so you’re looking for proof, right? Like
[00:09:50]Yu-kai Chou: [00:09:50] Yeah. So, so, actually this is very interesting.
[00:09:52] I see some pictures of people below. Those might be testimonials. Are they. No, they’re not. Okay. Nevermind. I want to say like a [00:10:00] lot of sites, what they like to do is I’d like to put testimonials, like of people, like we need social proof, right. All at the bottom. But they actually should be sprinkled throughout the site on the top, on the Biddle.
[00:10:09] It’s some, this a, wow, I’ve signed up to this end. This made my life so much better. Right. And so, because everything is just his pitch now and he was hit by his business might be really good, but. We want to see social influence. Right. And I think,
[00:10:24] Jun Loayza: [00:10:24] So I think here, like we’re further down, this is the testimony or the social influence that you’re saying
[00:10:29] Yu-kai Chou: [00:10:29] Yes. So ideally they’re sprinkled on the site, like everywhere. There’s a deep desire to action. Every time there’s reinforcement, it’s like a, you don’t want people to already made up their mind in a sense, and then go down Oh, there’s a lot of people here. And most people won’t read any of their 100, they’re only going to read one or two anyway.
[00:10:45]But hold on. Are these testimonials because it’s not even talking about how amazing the service is seems
[00:10:51] Jun Loayza: [00:10:51] I think it’s definitely mentions of Kevin and the product that he’s building. Like just complete a day, one challenge, or that email course.
[00:10:59] Yu-kai Chou: [00:10:59] okay. [00:11:00] Serving two difference applied, tip a winning. Okay. Yeah I, but a lot of it doesn’t seem to be very strong, compelling. My business became so much better. I think they all seem to be in the middle of the process, chit chatting Hey yeah, I like it. You know, and of course no disrespect to Keevon.
[00:11:18] Right. I think this is hard and he might be doing a great job. You know, I fully commend this. If we’re just looking at from an outsider standpoint, you know, my, my opinions on
[00:11:27] Jun Loayza: [00:11:27] I think there’s.
[00:11:28] Yu-kai Chou: [00:11:28] better.
[00:11:28] Jun Loayza: [00:11:28] Well, maybe stack this differently. Like this one, what an amazing course, this was when we could have learning here has made me more confident in how to connect with people. So I’m not sure the ordering of this, but maybe this, you know, things like this very specific really enjoying me Kevin’s email course and bringing it up so really quick.
[00:11:45] I think the reason we can’t sign up right now is it’s a cohort, so it hasn’t started yet. Like each month we roll out a new cohort with all the challenges, essentially. So basically I think what’s [00:12:00] happening is we just don’t have the we’re not in the right time.
[00:12:04] Yu-kai Chou: [00:12:04] Yeah, but it should. Let us know that, right. They should sign up to a wait list because the only thing we see as a desired action is you’re not ready yet. It’s not saying Hey, you’re ready, but too bad. You can’t join yet. Here’s the desired action. Actually, I think this is it.
[00:12:20] Jun Loayza: [00:12:20] the one. Yeah. So the builder, the buildup was all of the above, like the landing page leading to here.
[00:12:25] Yu-kai Chou: [00:12:25] Price will increase. It just seems so this genuine do this. This is a price counter price. Price will increase. And it might,
[00:12:34] Jun Loayza: [00:12:34] genuine? What, why, what makes you think it’s this genuine
[00:12:36] Yu-kai Chou: [00:12:36] it’s just this random sentence, like price will increase just like it’s just arbitrarily just using a quarter of six scarcity and impatience tactic from the analysis framework. And I don’t think there’s believability. So either there’s no believability is Oh yeah, sure. It’s then you’re just saying that you just want me to sign up quickly.
[00:12:56] It’s just like people. Who do this? Oh, you’ll have 24 hours to sign [00:13:00] up for my service or else you’ll never be able to. And they say that every 24 hours. So that’s either one, it does work. Scarcity works. Right. So either it’s not
[00:13:09] Jun Loayza: [00:13:09] Oh, I was just going to say, you said it’s not believable. Like he’s trying to use quarter of six scarcity to get people to act now, but you said it was utilized right now in a way that doesn’t seem believable. So how would
[00:13:19] Yu-kai Chou: [00:13:19] Yeah. It’s the way it’s phrased. So either. It’s not believable because it’s price will increase without any context or it actually will increase, but it feels disrespectful. It feels Oh, prices will decrease. Sucks to be you kind of thing. And as as obviously the arbitrary, right. So
[00:13:37] Jun Loayza: [00:13:37] may I give a reason?
[00:13:38] Yu-kai Chou: [00:13:38] yeah, I think you want to add in the belief, but it’s like, Hey, as you know, even just say we want to value those who commit early.
[00:13:46]So this is the price and this price might will likely go up or will go up later. I think just price will increase is such a, F you go away. If you don’t do it now, a statement that I just don’t feel like it’s a strong thing.
[00:14:00] [00:14:00] Jun Loayza: [00:14:00] So maybe it could be like early bird discount and then it, like with each timeframe
[00:14:04] Yu-kai Chou: [00:14:04] well, like for instance, if it says price will decrease on this date, that’s more believable. Right. This is just generic. Oh, you can go by now. It’s going to come up later. We’ll go over later. You better not regret
[00:14:15] Jun Loayza: [00:14:15] price will increase on this date. Yeah. So if you do a more specific app,
[00:14:19] Yu-kai Chou: [00:14:19] Yeah. On our cutoff point, you know? Yeah. Price will increase on our cutoff point April and likely.
[00:14:24] You want to say price will increase to, you know, $70 on this day because you, he could literally price goes up from 49 to $50, right? And it’s, and just Oh, like you’re so vague on the scarcity statement that you could still be honest. Right? You can say if you sign up a day before the cohort, it’s going to be $50.
[00:14:44] And now if you set up now it’s $49, but you just have this message. Right. So we don’t know, we actually don’t know what the real answer is to this question, which is the problem.
[00:14:54] Jun Loayza: [00:14:54] Yeah. So also anchor that to some kind of price point. So I don’t know how much it’s going to [00:15:00] increase too. So I don’t know how urgent it is
[00:15:01] Yu-kai Chou: [00:15:01] Yeah. And
[00:15:03] Jun Loayza: [00:15:03] click on this to see what
[00:15:04] Yu-kai Chou: [00:15:04] yeah. Yeah. I want you to click on, but I’ve said this is the best place to put some social proofs next to you, then, you know, this is the place where you want to click.
[00:15:10] Jun Loayza: [00:15:10] I think this is a Stripe checkout. Would it be cool to add social proof here? What’s interesting to me though, is I don’t know if I want to I’m so hesitant to pay because I just write to, I guess you’re prepaying for something that’s going to happen on May 10th I’m worried especially maybe it’s my unique situation with kids. Am I going to be available on May 10th? There’s a lot of things I have to think about, especially with these cohorts, right. It’s going to start this online class on May 10th.
[00:15:39] Yu-kai Chou: [00:15:39] well, partially you haven’t partial it’s because you haven’t read the I read the, what the program is. What’s the come in, but here, I don’t know how much you can change here. Right? But on the left side, there’s a lot of real estate. If he can put bullet points, right. Satisfaction guaranteed, or else we give you your money back only need one hour a day.
[00:15:57] So to address some of the biggest concerns, [00:16:00] and it’s if you don’t have time, no worries. Content will always be, you know, you’ll always be able to access our content. Right. So on the left side, either have some emotional imagery. That’s Oh, this is so amazing. I’m so excited or address the biggest fallout points.
[00:16:17]Jun Loayza: [00:16:17] I agree. So let me, I’m going back through this. It looks like, I don’t think it’s necessarily a certain time that we get together. It looks like I will receive 15 emails throughout this cohort to work through. So I don’t think I have to necessarily commit to a
[00:16:30] Yu-kai Chou: [00:16:30] so, so it’s literally The you know, the 21 day email core seatbelt for me, right.
[00:16:35] Jun Loayza: [00:16:35] good course, by the way.
[00:16:36] Yu-kai Chou: [00:16:36] It is a very good course. And we did it strictly just to collect emails. Right. But here it says, not only does he collect emails, but he’ll get $48, but I’m sure because of that, he’s going to collect less emails.
[00:16:47] Jun Loayza: [00:16:47] Let me get a preview. I wonder, so actually, I wonder if the preview can be a higher call to action because there’s still so much unknown. And then after the preview, I get hit with some email marketing to say, Hey, now that you’ve seen the preview, do you want to [00:17:00] sign up to the next
[00:17:00] Yu-kai Chou: [00:17:00] And maybe that’s why he put this at the top. Right? You can’t go public on the top, but you can set up, sign up for the free preview on South Keevon misspelling name.
[00:17:10]Jun Loayza: [00:17:10] My bad.
[00:17:11] Yu-kai Chou: [00:17:11] Yeah.
[00:17:12] Jun Loayza: [00:17:12] Send me preview. Oh man. Now I have to share my email. All right. I guess people are going to see my email
[00:17:16]Yu-kai Chou: [00:17:16] You can blanket if you want. Plus probably not enough people to watch this, to actually make a difference. Yeah. And if a million people watches, it we’ll deal with that problem later.
[00:17:27] Jun Loayza: [00:17:27] that’s a nice problem to have. Okay. That’s
[00:17:28]Okay. Here, I’m just going to click into the email. So like people don’t see my entire. Hold on. Let me see. You know what I don’t know, still though, I have, this is the first time I’m actually recording desktop. So I don’t know what’s going to happen if like it’s actually recording the desktop or what, so we could just be doing this and it results into nothing.
[00:17:46] Yu-kai Chou: [00:17:46] sure. The nice thing about us to doing. These things together is you know, we’re having fun. I enjoy it. It’s it doesn’t feel like work. So
[00:17:53]Jun Loayza: [00:17:53] I think this is a MailChimp trigger cause we have to double opt-in. I wish I feel if you could remove the double opt-in it’s preferred [00:18:00] because this would actually, I think reduce a significant people, a number of people to opt in, especially if your product is paid. Thank you for signing up the preview of the challenge where we get into your back story.
[00:18:08] Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:08] I think
[00:18:09] Jun Loayza: [00:18:09] yeah, I feel
[00:18:09] Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:09] to be like because that’s the kind of regulation, like you just have to do it compliance wise.
[00:18:14] Jun Loayza: [00:18:14] Oh, maybe you do have to double opt in. I don’t
[00:18:16]Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:16] I don’t think any site, I don’t think any site owner is like, Oh, I would just love to double opt it.
[00:18:21] Jun Loayza: [00:18:21] People that want to double opt in, right? Because
[00:18:22] Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:22] maybe they don’t want to pay and maybe they don’t want to, well, the the customer sure.
[00:18:29] But the site owner, maybe they don’t want to pay for a big email list if people are not so committed,
[00:18:35]Jun Loayza: [00:18:35] Okay.
[00:18:35]Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:35] That email could be better, right. That email could have, could add the light. And just say welcome to the journey. Like here’s all the exciting things. Are you ready to upgrade how the emotional imagery?
[00:18:44] So you can do a lot of other things to to not be functioned, focused design, but be more human focused design
[00:18:50] Jun Loayza: [00:18:50] Yeah, so, okay. I think I just see another challenge. I’m still waiting for the email and I don’t get it. Let me just share my screen again. So I’m
[00:18:57] Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:57] I honestly think maybe just sign up to a [00:19:00] newsletter that you don’t have to wait for their weekly or . Whatever.
[00:19:05] Jun Loayza: [00:19:05] Yeah, I’m still waiting for it. I mean, that’s a big thing, right? I’m like I’m here and I’m ready to start consuming the information. And right now in the thank you page, it says inbox
[00:19:12]Yu-kai Chou: [00:19:12] I honestly to see this preview, you just have to look at his Twitter and look at all the peoples CC-ing him like adding him or whatnot, because if his helping people do this stuff, obviously they’re not hidden under a bowl. Right. The whole point is he’s trying to get everyone to be really public on Twitter, and I’m sure he’s going to.
[00:19:31] Help push them a bit further and I’m sure he wants them to push him further. So I’m almost entirely sure if you go on Twitter and if he’s doing a good job, you’ll find what he’s doing. Right.
[00:19:41] Jun Loayza: [00:19:41] Yeah, man. Cool. So, thank you for your time. I know right now we did about almost 30 minutes. it was useful, you know, like you said, maybe I could have just shared my social security number and no one’s going to watch this.
[00:19:54] Yu-kai Chou: [00:19:54] Okay. I mean, we’ve done this enough times to know that we can’t bet on it being like huge views, [00:20:00] but what else? Might grow.
[00:20:02] Jun Loayza: [00:20:02] Yeah. Yeah We’ll see. It’s consistency is key anyways. Thanks for watching if you did. And good luck out there and building your products.
[00:20:09] Yu-kai Chou: [00:20:09] good luck at building your products.