[00:00:00] Jun Loayza: [00:00:00] Hey, Yu-kai how’s it going?
[00:00:02] Yu-kai Chou: [00:00:02] Good. How are you Jun?
[00:00:04] Jun Loayza: [00:00:04] I’m doing very well. So, I want to tell you a little bit about why I wanted to do this and what I think the audience people are going to get value from it. So I think what you do Yu-kai, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think what you do is you make better. Experiences or human experiences. So you take something that maybe is a little boring, maybe optimize for a robot or just the system, and then you make it more human.
[00:00:29] So that it’s optimized for people. Is that correct?
[00:00:31] Yu-kai Chou: [00:00:31] Yeah. More or less you could say I do gameful UX. To drive desired actions.
[00:00:37]Jun Loayza: [00:00:37] Very nice. Okay. So what I thought would be cool is if we go online and we take a look at certain products and figure out either what they’re doing well, or even better, what are ways that they can actually improve their product. And I was thinking we could start with the big. Players like HubSpot or MailChimp or all these other ones, but I thought it’d be interesting to go for the smaller players.
[00:01:00] [00:00:59] So I don’t, I’m not sure if you know, you could, but I follow a bunch of people on Twitter that are building cool products and maybe it didn’t, we’ll have a team of marketers or a team of UX designers to improve their experience. So maybe we can go in there and help them out and maybe it helps them
[00:01:15] Yu-kai Chou: [00:01:15] Sure.
[00:01:15] Jun Loayza: [00:01:15] and maybe it helps the people listening to this right.
[00:01:17] To see how they can improve the products themselves. So that sound pretty good.
[00:01:21] Yu-kai Chou: [00:01:21] Yeah. Let’s do an experience audit.
[00:01:23]Jun Loayza: [00:01:23] So here’s a bunch of people follow. I’m going to choose one at random. Does that sound good?
[00:01:28] Yu-kai Chou: [00:01:28] yep.
[00:01:28] Jun Loayza: [00:01:28] Let’s go with this guy. So, Kevin I started talking to him a little bit on Twitter is building some pretty cool things.
[00:01:33] And specifically he’s doing he’s building public lab. So let’s take a look at that. I don’t think you can see this sprint. I’m going to have to figure out how the actual share screen works. All right. Public lab. Here we go. We are a non public lab. Okay. So I think we can start here. Let’s put on your gameful design hat. All right. I’m going to put it on you. And [00:02:00] with that let’s start going for it.
[00:02:01] So public lab be part of the public movement building and public, develop your authentic public voice and grow your product in 30 days. And we’ll go through the whole onboarding. So, okay. Some quick things that come stand out to you above the fold.
[00:02:13] Yu-kai Chou: [00:02:13] okay. So the big thing, and my work is that. Every screen needs to have a desired action. So when we do design, we start with the desired action. So we’d say, what is the desired on this screen was the next one. What is the next one? And that desired action needs to be so clear that even if it’s in a foreign language, people just want to click on it.
[00:02:33] The brain feels a little uncomfortable, not clicking on that. So if there’s a huge big button that says, click me, right. If you’re just going to go into the flow, you’ll click it. You’ll have to think actually hard to say no, I just want to click this little link that says no, thank you. And when I first look at this screen, what to, what jumps out at me is there’s no clear desired action besides a login.
[00:02:54] Right. And I doubt at our face of log-in, as, for later use scaffolding phase, it is four phases [00:03:00] of the user experience journey. There’s discovery phase. Why, what motivates people to sign up onboarding their first day journey? How do they learn the rules and tools to play the game scaffolded coming back every day, every week, every month or 10 times a day, whatever your design is.
[00:03:13] And the end game, how do you design for the veteran players? And so login would be the desired action for the scaffolding player. It’s, you know, I think they’re already motivated. They just need a quick way to get there. That’s fine. See it here. It doesn’t even ask you how to suck. Yeah. Yeah. You can’t even sign up.
[00:03:28] So the first thing is it’s unclear, right? How do you sign up? And so usually when we do UX design and we would first stamp a desired action, everything around you see. Is about increasing motivation of that desired action through those eight core drives, because we know none of these eight quarters that they’re, there’s zero motivation, no behavior, it happens.
[00:03:49] And if it does not increase motivation towards the desired action, then it’s actually a waste of space. Ideally should throw it away. Some things you have to have like profile, you know, all this stuff, [00:04:00] but I technically, if it doesn’t increase your desire to action, you throw it away. So here I’m pretty sure if you scroll down, there’s probably going to be a call to action.
[00:04:07] What’s it? I mean, to not be like really weird, right? Yeah, this, yeah, this is not very clear as like I’ve signed up to email this, so, so let’s see. So the strategy here is whatever it’s showing above should build up so much motivation that I want to just put in my email and see a preview of it.
[00:04:23] So, so let’s go and SLS analyze what’s above.
[00:04:26] Jun Loayza: [00:04:26] You know what it could be. I mean, again, I don’t know enough of this product yet. I mean, so we’re both actually going through this onboarding phase together, but it could be maybe it’s not yet ready, although there is a login. So basically you want to enter the community. What’s not what I’m not sure is the community Twitter are you part of a Twitter list or something like that to be a part of the community?
[00:04:45] Yu-kai Chou: [00:04:45] Yeah. So, so I’m just trying to see what core drives are in our head here. So, first of all, desired actions, it’s not super clear. That’s the big problem for any type of behavioral design. If you go to the top again, so it appeals to, you know, core drive, five social influence [00:05:00] keeps talking about joining the community.
[00:05:01]Public movement, right. A lot of core drive, five social influence. But then it’s well, what is my authentic public voice of? What does that mean? And how does that connect to growing my product? Mo I think there’s not a complete connection between authentic public voice versus growing my product.
[00:05:16] Right. One seems like I’m becoming some kind of personal expert thought leader in a way. The other is hand building a a product and I’m growing it. So. That it hasn’t made that connection more. So I’m going to read a bit lower. So be part of a community of indie. So okay. Community creators, solopreneurs who share transparently and comparable groaning.
[00:05:36] So, and now it seems to me, again, this is a, just a community like a Slack, immediate Twitter community, a bunch of people who just share ideas with each other. And it’s unclear about what is the actual business. Yes.
[00:05:49] Jun Loayza: [00:05:49] okay. Yeah. And then here, it’s also like you said, no seat, no call to action. And then here it’s if you’re not ready yet, but I am ready. What if I am ready?
[00:05:56]Yu-kai Chou: [00:05:56] There’s no, if you’re ready per body, there’s [00:06:00] no way for you to actually act on that readiness. Right. And what’s interesting is there is some debate about a call to actions, right? We call them DAS desired actions. On the top of the side when no one’s ready. Right. They have to learn what it is yet.
[00:06:13] So why put it there? Why not? Usually people are ready when you go down, you see the value proposition, but from a psychological standpoint, if you first see that button there at the top, even if no one interacts with it, it anchors the question. Should I sign up? Let’s say, what should I do this desired action.
[00:06:28] And then everything you look at it is about answering that question. Oh, maybe I want to do it more or maybe I do want it more. So when you get to the bottom, Called same desired action button. You’re ready to do it, but if you don’t see it on top, that question is in your head. And therefore it’s a lot, it’s the bottom button is less effective.
[00:06:45] So again, this has none of that. But we can keep going because I like immediately below it, it says are you like Tom or something that brings out my curiosity well, you know, I’m not ready to sign up. Yeah. And Tom looks like, I don’t know. Does [00:07:00] he look.
[00:07:00] Jun Loayza: [00:07:00] I think he’s having breakfast.
[00:07:01] Yu-kai Chou: [00:07:01] Do you think he looks successful?
[00:07:03] Does he have, do you think he looks happy? I can.
[00:07:06] Jun Loayza: [00:07:06] he looks a little sad to me.
[00:07:08] Yu-kai Chou: [00:07:08] Yeah. Is, it does either his pitch. I’m not going to read the text verse, cause I’m curious about this. Either his saying, look, Tom, being so casual, just being on his breakfast table and is making so much money as being so successful as growing his product.
[00:07:23] Right. So easy. It’s talking about how easy it is. That’s one aspect. The other aspect is. Hey, look, Tom is just there trying to figure out how to make a better life for himself and his, he couldn’t figure it out. So it was just like being a little sad. So let’s look at the text. Tom is working hard as product, but he needs more.
[00:07:38] traction. That’s the second case he needs more traction. Yeah. Sort of means things about others. Grown an audience on Twitter and wants to give a track. Hey, so this is about growing at Twitter audience. See, at this moment on the small fine tax, we were kind of like detective trying to piece together what this does.
[00:07:54] Right. And it shouldn’t. It shouldn’t be so hard to do that. He finds many builders who are [00:08:00] sharing good content, growing followers and get lots of buzz for the products that they’re building. This is a little just, how do they do it? How do they share? Good content. Okay. Also, are you also dreaming about figuring out Twitter to feel the company product?
[00:08:10] Okay. So now I fully understand that this is about improving your marketing on Twitter. Hence your. Finding your authentic voice on Twitter, and therefore you’re doing better marketing for your product, which hence has grown your product. Right. And I don’t think we’re, you know, we’re like people who don’t understand this industry and it took us this long to figure this out.
[00:08:32] Like we’re kind of in the target audience. Right? So, go up a bit. Let’s look at what’s the next thing they presented introducing building and public. So now it’s this is our product building
[00:08:43] Jun Loayza: [00:08:43] it’s. If I can just jump in there really quick, it looks to me like this is like a long landing page, right. So he’s trying to build a story on what the pain is and then how you’re going to get there. And I think, you know, one quick thing that stands out there though is in the beginning, let’s say if I was ready to, I don’t really know where to go.
[00:08:59] So I think for [00:09:00] those people that are ready, maybe a CTA there. And then now he’s trying to build a story of you know, this is the target market is Tom he’s building a product, but he doesn’t have enough. Marketing or R or brand or emphasis behind it for people don’t know his product.
[00:09:14] So then this is the solution, I guess. Right? Introducing, building and public, essentially.
[00:09:20] Yu-kai Chou: [00:09:20] while you’re building a product company of you’re going to through countless. Okay. But is this about doing Twitter followership and ensuring the business you attract followers with an audience around this becomes key? You’re using transfers to looping your followers, welfare building of step-by-step.
[00:09:34] So, okay. So I think he is. Basically some kind of community program on getting people to become awesome at Twitter. So that therefore at this point I would actually just want to look at his Twitter is he actually doing an amazing job on Twitter, right?
[00:09:48] Jun Loayza: [00:09:48] Well, so you’re looking for proof, right? Like
[00:09:50]Yu-kai Chou: [00:09:50] Yeah. So, so, actually this is very interesting.
[00:09:52] I see some pictures of people below. Those might be testimonials. Are they. No, they’re not. Okay. Nevermind. I want to say like a [00:10:00] lot of sites, what they like to do is I’d like to put testimonials, like of people, like we need social proof, right. All at the bottom. But they actually should be sprinkled throughout the site on the top, on the Biddle.
[00:10:09] It’s some, this a, wow, I’ve signed up to this end. This made my life so much better. Right. And so, because everything is just his pitch now and he was hit by his business might be really good, but. We want to see social influence. Right. And I think,
[00:10:24] Jun Loayza: [00:10:24] So I think here, like we’re further down, this is the testimony or the social influence that you’re saying
[00:10:29] Yu-kai Chou: [00:10:29] Yes. So ideally they’re sprinkled on the site, like everywhere. There’s a deep desire to action. Every time there’s reinforcement, it’s like a, you don’t want people to already made up their mind in a sense, and then go down Oh, there’s a lot of people here. And most people won’t read any of their 100, they’re only going to read one or two anyway.
[00:10:45]But hold on. Are these testimonials because it’s not even talking about how amazing the service is seems
[00:10:51] Jun Loayza: [00:10:51] I think it’s definitely mentions of Kevin and the product that he’s building. Like just complete a day, one challenge, or that email course.
[00:10:59] Yu-kai Chou: [00:10:59] okay. [00:11:00] Serving two difference applied, tip a winning. Okay. Yeah I, but a lot of it doesn’t seem to be very strong, compelling. My business became so much better. I think they all seem to be in the middle of the process, chit chatting Hey yeah, I like it. You know, and of course no disrespect to Keevon.
[00:11:18] Right. I think this is hard and he might be doing a great job. You know, I fully commend this. If we’re just looking at from an outsider standpoint, you know, my, my opinions on
[00:11:27] Jun Loayza: [00:11:27] I think there’s.
[00:11:28] Yu-kai Chou: [00:11:28] better.
[00:11:28] Jun Loayza: [00:11:28] Well, maybe stack this differently. Like this one, what an amazing course, this was when we could have learning here has made me more confident in how to connect with people. So I’m not sure the ordering of this, but maybe this, you know, things like this very specific really enjoying me Kevin’s email course and bringing it up so really quick.
[00:11:45] I think the reason we can’t sign up right now is it’s a cohort, so it hasn’t started yet. Like each month we roll out a new cohort with all the challenges, essentially. So basically I think what’s [00:12:00] happening is we just don’t have the we’re not in the right time.
[00:12:04] Yu-kai Chou: [00:12:04] Yeah, but it should. Let us know that, right. They should sign up to a wait list because the only thing we see as a desired action is you’re not ready yet. It’s not saying Hey, you’re ready, but too bad. You can’t join yet. Here’s the desired action. Actually, I think this is it.
[00:12:20] Jun Loayza: [00:12:20] the one. Yeah. So the builder, the buildup was all of the above, like the landing page leading to here.
[00:12:25] Yu-kai Chou: [00:12:25] Price will increase. It just seems so this genuine do this. This is a price counter price. Price will increase. And it might,
[00:12:34] Jun Loayza: [00:12:34] genuine? What, why, what makes you think it’s this genuine
[00:12:36] Yu-kai Chou: [00:12:36] it’s just this random sentence, like price will increase just like it’s just arbitrarily just using a quarter of six scarcity and impatience tactic from the analysis framework. And I don’t think there’s believability. So either there’s no believability is Oh yeah, sure. It’s then you’re just saying that you just want me to sign up quickly.
[00:12:56] It’s just like people. Who do this? Oh, you’ll have 24 hours to sign [00:13:00] up for my service or else you’ll never be able to. And they say that every 24 hours. So that’s either one, it does work. Scarcity works. Right. So either it’s not
[00:13:09] Jun Loayza: [00:13:09] Oh, I was just going to say, you said it’s not believable. Like he’s trying to use quarter of six scarcity to get people to act now, but you said it was utilized right now in a way that doesn’t seem believable. So how would
[00:13:19] Yu-kai Chou: [00:13:19] Yeah. It’s the way it’s phrased. So either. It’s not believable because it’s price will increase without any context or it actually will increase, but it feels disrespectful. It feels Oh, prices will decrease. Sucks to be you kind of thing. And as as obviously the arbitrary, right. So
[00:13:37] Jun Loayza: [00:13:37] may I give a reason?
[00:13:38] Yu-kai Chou: [00:13:38] yeah, I think you want to add in the belief, but it’s like, Hey, as you know, even just say we want to value those who commit early.
[00:13:46]So this is the price and this price might will likely go up or will go up later. I think just price will increase is such a, F you go away. If you don’t do it now, a statement that I just don’t feel like it’s a strong thing.
[00:14:00] [00:14:00] Jun Loayza: [00:14:00] So maybe it could be like early bird discount and then it, like with each timeframe
[00:14:04] Yu-kai Chou: [00:14:04] well, like for instance, if it says price will decrease on this date, that’s more believable. Right. This is just generic. Oh, you can go by now. It’s going to come up later. We’ll go over later. You better not regret
[00:14:15] Jun Loayza: [00:14:15] price will increase on this date. Yeah. So if you do a more specific app,
[00:14:19] Yu-kai Chou: [00:14:19] Yeah. On our cutoff point, you know? Yeah. Price will increase on our cutoff point April and likely.
[00:14:24] You want to say price will increase to, you know, $70 on this day because you, he could literally price goes up from 49 to $50, right? And it’s, and just Oh, like you’re so vague on the scarcity statement that you could still be honest. Right? You can say if you sign up a day before the cohort, it’s going to be $50.
[00:14:44] And now if you set up now it’s $49, but you just have this message. Right. So we don’t know, we actually don’t know what the real answer is to this question, which is the problem.
[00:14:54] Jun Loayza: [00:14:54] Yeah. So also anchor that to some kind of price point. So I don’t know how much it’s going to [00:15:00] increase too. So I don’t know how urgent it is
[00:15:01] Yu-kai Chou: [00:15:01] Yeah. And
[00:15:03] Jun Loayza: [00:15:03] click on this to see what
[00:15:04] Yu-kai Chou: [00:15:04] yeah. Yeah. I want you to click on, but I’ve said this is the best place to put some social proofs next to you, then, you know, this is the place where you want to click.
[00:15:10] Jun Loayza: [00:15:10] I think this is a Stripe checkout. Would it be cool to add social proof here? What’s interesting to me though, is I don’t know if I want to I’m so hesitant to pay because I just write to, I guess you’re prepaying for something that’s going to happen on May 10th I’m worried especially maybe it’s my unique situation with kids. Am I going to be available on May 10th? There’s a lot of things I have to think about, especially with these cohorts, right. It’s going to start this online class on May 10th.
[00:15:39] Yu-kai Chou: [00:15:39] well, partially you haven’t partial it’s because you haven’t read the I read the, what the program is. What’s the come in, but here, I don’t know how much you can change here. Right? But on the left side, there’s a lot of real estate. If he can put bullet points, right. Satisfaction guaranteed, or else we give you your money back only need one hour a day.
[00:15:57] So to address some of the biggest concerns, [00:16:00] and it’s if you don’t have time, no worries. Content will always be, you know, you’ll always be able to access our content. Right. So on the left side, either have some emotional imagery. That’s Oh, this is so amazing. I’m so excited or address the biggest fallout points.
[00:16:17]Jun Loayza: [00:16:17] I agree. So let me, I’m going back through this. It looks like, I don’t think it’s necessarily a certain time that we get together. It looks like I will receive 15 emails throughout this cohort to work through. So I don’t think I have to necessarily commit to a
[00:16:30] Yu-kai Chou: [00:16:30] so, so it’s literally The you know, the 21 day email core seatbelt for me, right.
[00:16:35] Jun Loayza: [00:16:35] good course, by the way.
[00:16:36] Yu-kai Chou: [00:16:36] It is a very good course. And we did it strictly just to collect emails. Right. But here it says, not only does he collect emails, but he’ll get $48, but I’m sure because of that, he’s going to collect less emails.
[00:16:47] Jun Loayza: [00:16:47] Let me get a preview. I wonder, so actually, I wonder if the preview can be a higher call to action because there’s still so much unknown. And then after the preview, I get hit with some email marketing to say, Hey, now that you’ve seen the preview, do you want to [00:17:00] sign up to the next
[00:17:00] Yu-kai Chou: [00:17:00] And maybe that’s why he put this at the top. Right? You can’t go public on the top, but you can set up, sign up for the free preview on South Keevon misspelling name.
[00:17:10]Jun Loayza: [00:17:10] My bad.
[00:17:11] Yu-kai Chou: [00:17:11] Yeah.
[00:17:12] Jun Loayza: [00:17:12] Send me preview. Oh man. Now I have to share my email. All right. I guess people are going to see my email
[00:17:16]Yu-kai Chou: [00:17:16] You can blanket if you want. Plus probably not enough people to watch this, to actually make a difference. Yeah. And if a million people watches, it we’ll deal with that problem later.
[00:17:27] Jun Loayza: [00:17:27] that’s a nice problem to have. Okay. That’s
[00:17:28]Okay. Here, I’m just going to click into the email. So like people don’t see my entire. Hold on. Let me see. You know what I don’t know, still though, I have, this is the first time I’m actually recording desktop. So I don’t know what’s going to happen if like it’s actually recording the desktop or what, so we could just be doing this and it results into nothing.
[00:17:46] Yu-kai Chou: [00:17:46] sure. The nice thing about us to doing. These things together is you know, we’re having fun. I enjoy it. It’s it doesn’t feel like work. So
[00:17:53]Jun Loayza: [00:17:53] I think this is a MailChimp trigger cause we have to double opt-in. I wish I feel if you could remove the double opt-in it’s preferred [00:18:00] because this would actually, I think reduce a significant people, a number of people to opt in, especially if your product is paid. Thank you for signing up the preview of the challenge where we get into your back story.
[00:18:08] So
[00:18:08] Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:08] I think
[00:18:09] Jun Loayza: [00:18:09] yeah, I feel
[00:18:09] Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:09] to be like because that’s the kind of regulation, like you just have to do it compliance wise.
[00:18:14] Jun Loayza: [00:18:14] Oh, maybe you do have to double opt in. I don’t
[00:18:16]Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:16] I don’t think any site, I don’t think any site owner is like, Oh, I would just love to double opt it.
[00:18:21] Jun Loayza: [00:18:21] People that want to double opt in, right? Because
[00:18:22] Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:22] maybe they don’t want to pay and maybe they don’t want to, well, the the customer sure.
[00:18:29] But the site owner, maybe they don’t want to pay for a big email list if people are not so committed,
[00:18:35]Jun Loayza: [00:18:35] Okay.
[00:18:35]Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:35] That email could be better, right. That email could have, could add the light. And just say welcome to the journey. Like here’s all the exciting things. Are you ready to upgrade how the emotional imagery?
[00:18:44] So you can do a lot of other things to to not be functioned, focused design, but be more human focused design
[00:18:50] Jun Loayza: [00:18:50] Yeah, so, okay. I think I just see another challenge. I’m still waiting for the email and I don’t get it. Let me just share my screen again. So I’m
[00:18:57] Yu-kai Chou: [00:18:57] I honestly think maybe just sign up to a [00:19:00] newsletter that you don’t have to wait for their weekly or . Whatever.
[00:19:05] Jun Loayza: [00:19:05] Yeah, I’m still waiting for it. I mean, that’s a big thing, right? I’m like I’m here and I’m ready to start consuming the information. And right now in the thank you page, it says inbox
[00:19:12]Yu-kai Chou: [00:19:12] I honestly to see this preview, you just have to look at his Twitter and look at all the peoples CC-ing him like adding him or whatnot, because if his helping people do this stuff, obviously they’re not hidden under a bowl. Right. The whole point is he’s trying to get everyone to be really public on Twitter, and I’m sure he’s going to.
[00:19:31] Help push them a bit further and I’m sure he wants them to push him further. So I’m almost entirely sure if you go on Twitter and if he’s doing a good job, you’ll find what he’s doing. Right.
[00:19:41] Jun Loayza: [00:19:41] Yeah, man. Cool. So, thank you for your time. I know right now we did about almost 30 minutes. it was useful, you know, like you said, maybe I could have just shared my social security number and no one’s going to watch this.
[00:19:53] And
[00:19:54] Yu-kai Chou: [00:19:54] Okay. I mean, we’ve done this enough times to know that we can’t bet on it being like huge views, [00:20:00] but what else? Might grow.
[00:20:02] Jun Loayza: [00:20:02] Yeah. Yeah We’ll see. It’s consistency is key anyways. Thanks for watching if you did. And good luck out there and building your products.
[00:20:09] Yu-kai Chou: [00:20:09] good luck at building your products.