yukai chou gamification

Design Ripples: The Daily Quest List on Octalysis Prime

This post is about how a small design decision to help new and Onboarding members created ripples for Endgame players on the Octalysis Prime Island. If you’re unclear on what certain terms are, try going to octalysisprime.com or referring to the OP Wiki.

And how the 8 Core Drives helped us find a better solution

An endgame user raises a question and provides a possible solution…

Iñaki Ibargoyen Vergara9 days ago
I’ve been talking with @Frank Parker lately and today that I took a look at the daily quest I had to go and look for the CD information to the map and so on…
taking some time

So I’m back with this suggestion. What do you think? @thechou@erikvanmechelen
@tiago@Leonardo Andrade easily doable?

A design suggestion from an Endgame member

Frank Parker9 days ago
Great suggestion, it would save me from going to the map to get information for potion selection. A CD3 improvement.

Erik van Mechelen

9 days ago
I think it’s a strong suggestion as well, and thank you Frank for the extra note on CD3 there. Also sent to the channel

Dirk proposes a group design thinking exercise

Dirk van Diepen

9 days ago
Thanks for sharing your idea @Iñaki (teacher). For those who want to optimize their EXP gain with potion planning it would indeed save some time to have it listed directly at the quests.

Let’s make a small design exercise out of it to judge whether it is an overall improvement for the Island! So let’s step into the shoes of the OP Development team and first try to answer these questions about why the quests were invented:

  • What is/are the Desired Action(s) the Quests are designed to enhance?
  • What player types are the Quests designed for?

—> Pitch in everybody! <—

Iñaki Ibargoyen Vergara9 days ago
I think Quests are made for users to come more frequently (every day if possible) and watch videos

There are two DA there. Using something similar to a Magnetic Cap and a Torture Break.You have your coins reward, which is not much but is an extra you can get, so why not ^^

I have tons of money now but I still desire to get them xDIf we analyze the basic player types, we could see what is each one getting from it.

Socializers: Probably the ones getting less from it, as items still don’t have ways of connecting with other users. They could be interested in getting coins to share them with the philanthropist but… probably not much.

Explorers: As coins are the way to get items, if they want to try them they have to get them. They can also get it with the chest. It will also work as a suggestion for them.

Achievers: They want it all, new users will probably watch that videos and more, as they also want to raise and get EXP for that, but they would at least watch those 3, to get the coins.

Killers: More or less the same as the achievers. I would say it is made for all users, but achievers could be the ones taking the most of it. Anyway, despite being designed in a way, it’s being used in many ways. As there are plenty of videos, new users can use it as a guide of what to start with. Old users usually have all the videos watched, then, they stop for a while and when the quest is back, they start another time watching videos.

It gives a suggestion on what to watch and as we want to get the most of those few videos we have to watch, so we study which CDs are more powerful, therefore we can choose how to obtain the most EXP points or how to potentiate the CDs we want. And then, full of potions, we watch them.I think I that now that I see the end of the videos near me, I even wait for the best day to watch those videos. To get the most of it.I hope I could made my thoughts understandable. My head is a little mess right nowI’d love to hear your thoughts @Dirk (edited) Also sent to the channel

Dirk van Diepen

8 days ago
Before I reply I’d love to hear from other people too. You can also keep it closer to yourself and answer this question:Does the Quest feature make you be more active? If so, what is motivating you?

Frank Parker8 days ago
The Daily Quest is a feature that provides a daily goal of viewing 3 videos of the 500 videos available. The daily quest allows for a sense of progress along the way. This is a CD2 mechanism that supports a sense of achievement and progress. When you have finished watching videos, this sense of progress disappears. @Dirk@Iñaki (teacher) The daily quest mechanism also makes selection easier, eliminating the need to decide that might support insecurity. (edited) 

Frank Parker8 days ago
The daily quest design on the island also supports Explorer types by encouraging a non-linear movement through learning videos. It provides goal-setting for Achievers. (edited) 

Frank Parker8 days ago
Big disappointment when this shows the first time. It suggests complete. Returning daily to check the Quest Log is a testament to the expectation generated by this feature. I am surprised after completing the videos how excited I get to see the Daily Quest renewed with new videos. I noticed how annoyed many users get that when new videos are available and the Daily Quest log is found empty. It appears to be a bug in the application and breaks the transparency of the quest. This moment usually leads to the discovery that the Daily Quest requires videos from more than 2 categories. This breakdown suggests a break in one’s progress. It also suggests the end.

What Octalysis Primers see once they’ve completed all videos.

Peter Hyde5 days ago
I agree with @Frank Parker that it is a disappointment when you finish all videos – there should be a big win state. I don’t think it is a bug though, when I posted on this I was told if there were at least three videos available in at least three different areas of the island areas then it would show again. I am waiting for new videos to test this.

Peter Hyde5 days ago
I don’t see adding core drives to the daily quests would help. To me, you finish the three videos each day to complete the quest and receive the bonus. I never looked at what the core drives were. Less is more on the interface for me, keep it simple.

Dirk van Diepen

5 days ago
Thanks for the analyses Iñaki, Frank and Peter! I will give some feedback on your comments and share my own thoughts (note that I joined the team after this feature was implemented, so I’ll be doing some guesswork here).

The main DA the Quests aim to enhance is indeed to watch more video’s. But this does not rely on a Magnetic Cap or a Torture Break. Because you can still watch as many videos you want. This feature falls under GT#35 Quest List, which mostly relies on CD2.

The coin reward is not that much indeed. But if you are brand new to the island and are only collecting Chou Coins from the chest. The Quests will almost double your daily gold income.

Even if you have more Chou Coins than you could ever spend, as you said @Iñaki (teacher), the reward is still interesting. This is partly because you care about Chou Coins and you simply always want to get more (CD4). But probably more because the moment of receiving the reward empowers the win-state and makes you feel accomplished (CD2) your subconsciousness will ‘think’ something like this: “I did it! And I got a hundred Chou Coins, so it means something that I completed this task! I’m awesome.”

Your short analysis, Iñaki, using Bartle’s four Player Types, seems very focused on the reward, thinking about how the Chou Coins would motivate them. You make a fine addition @Frank Parker about promoting ‘non-linear movement through the island’ (CD7) for Explorers and ‘adding goal-setting’ for Achievers (CD2).

For veteran users it becomes a more practical feature. It notifies you that there are again new video’s to watch (serving as a Feedback Mechanic to trigger DA’s) and can direct you to them quickly.I agree with all of you that, after having finished watching all videos, the Quest log can feel like a disappointment. For the few, but very important, veteran users who reach this state there should be an End-Game feature. Like a repeatable quest that can only be done after ‘proving your worth’ by having all the ‘initiate video-watching quests’ completed. (@thechou lets brainstorm about this some time shall we?)

– – – – –

Besides adding the CD2, CD4 and CD7 motivation already mentioned, I think the biggest aim for the Quest Log is to address an anti-core drive.

As with any platform, one of the biggest challenges is to get Onboarding users invested in the experience.

There are over 500 videos on the island, covering a wide variety of topics, spread over many different sections and sub-topics. That is quite overwhelming, it is easy to feel lost, not knowing where to begin.I’m sure many of you have felt this at some point: “I logged on, opened my chest, enjoyed the peaceful tune, but now I’m not sure what to do. What did I watch last time? Should I start a new series? Let’s check on FaceBook first, because this insecurity, that Frank already mentioned, is making me feel uneasy.”But once you got over that first hurdle and watched one video, it is a lot easier to watch a few more. And that is where the Quest Log comes in.

To judge which of the 500 videos is the ‘best’ choice to watch is hard as they are all presented as equal. The Quest Log highlights 3 of them and temporarily makes them ‘better’ than the others because there is a reward attached and it is pleasant to reach a clear goal. So this helps you to get started, after which you are more likely keep going and all the other features can do their thing to get you really invested.So I would say that the main point is to remove the anti-core drive (Anti-CD2) of uncertainty.

– – – – –

To get back to the original question, for the 95% of users it does not add much (or any) motivation to see the Core Drives listed with the Quest videos. As Yu-Kai often says:“

Any feature that does not motivate a DA is a distraction and should be discarded”

Or as @Peter Hyde correctly put it, “less is more on the interface, keep it simple”.

Iñaki Ibargoyen Vergara3 days ago
Hey @Dirk, thanks for such a detailed answer. About the Game techniques, I did not mention quest as it is obvious, but I wrote the other 2 GT because, despite not being exactly as they are description the manual. They gave me similar feelings. Maybe because being a Hardcore achiever player.

Magnetic cap: A limit or cap in how many times a user can perform a Desired Action over a certain period

Whenever I do an action I try to get the most of it. If I get time to watch videos but SB is not active, I’ll ask @xiaogou to activate it or wait for him to do it on its own and then start. If I see it active, I take a look at the videos and see if at least 2/3 seem interesting by title. If so I proceed to analyze the CD points, select the potions and now geomons according to my stats and watch the videos.

I could watch more videos , but as I could not get what I wanted from them, I stop doing it.

Similar to what happens with the messages on videos, after the third, with gives no reward, some people stop. I stop after the first, keep the comment on a trello board until I have the SB active and then post one or many.Torture Break: A sudden pause to the Desired Actions for a set duration of time in order to pace the user experience and create more desire to moving forward.

The torture break I though because of the pause, each day doing something instead of watching all the videos in a row as i did when I first started in the island. I entered the core and went out without clouds xD. I almost closed my eyes and could see @thechou face xD. too many hours


I tend to see the GT as a base of what can be applied and not something rigid, but I lacked on explanations back there. I hope my though is more understandable now. Maybe adding the feature as a buyable option or a power could be an idea, this way just who wants it would have it.or maybe seeing the information when you put your mouse on top of it, so it does not works as a distractions for users who do not want it. I see is really complicated to design for all player types at the same time. If I find it hard with 25-30, you having thousands…

Ulric Kurashige3 days ago
@Dirk The quest system is a pain.

  1. First I open the quests.
  2. I would have to write down the quests.
  3. Then open the map to find the videos.
  4. Write down the CDs to see how I can optimize my progress
  5. After finding the video I would then need to go to get the potions I need.
  6. Activate the appropriate Geomons.
  7. Go back to the quests and watch them.

At first, the quests were an anti-core drive to others and I, who are not so motivated. The reward to effort level is too high to make effective use of the reward.

The demotivator was the large for the number of steps to make it useful. I was lucky to be paired with @Iñaki (teacher) as a SB added a strong CD 5 and CD 1 Social/Adventure group. if I could cut out steps 2, 3, and 4 (which is grunt work to get to CD3) it would be a great help. I feel adding this feature would inspire others with CD 3 and are of the same player type like Iñaki and I.@Dirk

By the way CD7 random quest without a theme does not inspire me at all. There is usually a purpose for the quest (CD1). Random quests means I have no control of what I undertake. In most games there is a quest list. You want to take the one(s) that further your cause CD1 and CD 3 then at the end of the quest you receive either a random reward CD 7 or a meaningful reward CD 2 and CD 4. (edited) 

Time for the Chief Mentor to offer thoughts

Yu-kai Chou

3 days ago
Love the discussion. First thing @Peter Hyde, I believe the system will soon update to – as long as you have one video unwatched, it will show on the Daily Quest. Watching that last video will immediately reward you with the completion bonus. Treat it as a small bonus for finishing ALL the videos, which is definitely no easy feat in any standard.

I’ll have to investigate if we are already developing upgraded communication to showcase the “no more videos” win-state, which should truly feel exciting. This is a classic “anti-climatically win state” and it is there because I did not imagine the scenario where people have ALL the videos watched (some might be in autopilot mode in the background but I’m fine with that as long as they are truly watching many and benefiting/learning from those). I think a good design here would be the first time someone reaches this state, there will be a special treasure box that has something very rare – I have an idea but gonna keep it mysterious for now 😉

Yu-kai Chou

3 days ago
And you guys are mostly right. When the feature came out, it was for onboarding and early scaffolding users. To be honest it’s funny because we had many blue users who thought they watched all the videos but they just didn’t know they could go to more places on the Island.

So1) this told people “hey you still have unwatched stuff!”

2) reduce decision paralysis (or insecurity being the vocab here?) It worked pretty well, but the funny thing is then people felt disappointed after doing the “work” of finishing the quests, they didn’t get a reward. What?! They watched all these videos and got more educated for nothing?! So that’s where the chest came to play. Then a new interesting problem in behavior happened (OP is such an interesting testing ground on human motivation!). Because it offered coins, people felt like they HAD TO watch those three videos and got pissed that we are forcing them to watch things they didn’t care about (btw, if you see the comments many people were glad they found stuff they never thought to watch too). So then, we added the ability to refresh the list with some coins so you are able to see what you like. (edited) Also sent to the channel

Yu-kai Chou

3 days ago
Finally, there came a new “breed” of players who really strive to grow into the EXP system and are optimizing for everything. These are our Silver+ Members haha. These are the people who MUST use potions, Success Buddy Bonus, and now Geomon bonus on every video watched, or else they feel like they are losing something (btw, orbs were introduced to make people feel the quantity of videos is not the bottleneck of your exp journey – warning: we may soon cap each video to only be rewatched with exp once a week to retain educational value).

This type of hardcore endgame playing causes someone like @xiaogou who is one of the most internally and intrinsically inspired learner to feel that it was not “useful” to watch the Daily Quest Videos because there are just too many steps that need to be done to find out what EXP is in each video before doing the potion/geomon run. As a result, the “labor” to get those things done was not worth the “reward” and the request is to reduce the labor by just having all the CD points there so they can go straight to doing the potion/geomon combos (which by itself takes time and effort). Isn’t it fascinating how a small simple tool made for beginners to prevent them from being too lost created this entire saga of ripples? That’s what I love about OP and why it exists so we can all learn things that isn’t anywhere else yet 🙂

Yu-kai Chou

3 days ago
Finally, to answer your initial request @Iñaki (teacher) . What we’ll do is that when you mouse over the Daily Quest items, you will see the values for the 8 Core Drives.

@Leonardo Andrade@tiago

Frank Parker2 days ago
Yes! I like the concluding compromise. This was a great design exercise. Thanks @Dirk

Iñaki Ibargoyen Vergara1 day ago
I’m happy to read this, and thank you all for the comments and the insightful discussion. I love talking about those things, and it helps a lot to the learning process as was shown by @Howie Ju‘s pyramid the other day

Yu-kai Chou

8 hours ago
Hey @erikvanmechelen Lets have the highlights of this conversation shared in the newsletter, maybe even a blogpost.

My pleasure! – Erik

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