Gamification, or the act of making something game-like, is certainly not something new. Throughout history, humans have tried to make existing tasks more intriguing, motivating, and even “fun.” When a small group of people casually decide to compete against each other in hunting and gathering, or simply start keeping score of their activities and comparing it to their past records, they are adopting principles that are prevalent in modern games to make tasks more engaging.
One of the earlier works done on adapting gameplay practices within the workplace can be traced back to 1984, when Charles Coonradt explored the value of adding game-play elements at work through his book The Game of Work. 1
Coonradt addressed the question, “Why would people pay for the privilege of working harder at their chosen sport or recreational pursuit than they would work at a job where they were being paid?” He then boiled it down to five conclusions that led to hobbies being more preferable to work.
• Clearly defined goals
• Better scorekeeping and scorecards
• More frequent feedback
• A higher degree of personal choice of methods • Consistent coaching
As we dive deeper into our journey together, we will learn about how these factors boil down to specific motivation Core Drives that can be intently designed for.
On the other hand, some early forms of marketing gamification can also be seen in the form of (regrettably) “shoot the duck” banner ads on websites, where an image ad tempts users to click on it by displaying a duck flying around. These tactics have probably tricked many people, myself included, into clicking on them once or twice upon seeing them. Later on, eCommerce sites like eBay and Woot.com all adapted sound gamification principles to become hugely popular examples of how game mechanics and dynamics can really make a process fun and engaging (in later chapters, we will examine how both eBay and Woot.com utilize great gamifica- tion design to make purchases exciting and urgent).
Of course, as “games” evolved throughout the centuries, the art of “making things game-like” naturally evolved too. Through the ad- vent of the Internet, Big Data, pluggable frameworks, and stronger graphics, our ability to design and implement better gamification experiences has drastically improved to the point where we can now bring sophisticated and subtle game-like experiences into every aspect of our lives.
In recent years, the term “gamification” became a buzzword because the gaming industry shifted from making simple games that only target young boys, to social and mobile games like Farmville and Angry Birds that also appeal to middle-aged executives as well as senior retirees alike.
There are reasons we start things and reasons we stay engaged.
We wanted to learn more about our members in OP, so we asked:
Why did you start?
Why are you still here?
Here’s what we learned.
This was taken from a sample of our Octalysis Prime paying members, including some annual members.
About half of members changed their response, although you cannot see what they changed their response from and to.
Surveys are notoriously difficult to dissect, and so we do not rely on them exclusively to get to know our members.
Perhaps best are the in-person discussions we have with members. In these face-to-face interactions, people tend to share more personal stories about what brought them to Octalysis Prime, and what they are hoping to do next in their business and life.
Earlier in my career, I was deeply involved in Business Intelligence (BI). It occurred to me that BI is really good at determining what an organization should do next but offered no insight into those who’d do the work, the employees. That realization drove me to form the company I lead today, Centrical. Its aim is to help enterprises help their employees get better at what they do and make it fun in the process.
Given the fun element, it should not be surprising that advanced gamification is at the core of our technology platform which holistically blends it with personalized microlearning, and real-time performance management.
In the course of researching effective ways to apply game mechanics to a range of employee performance challenges, I came upon the work of Yu-kai Chou and, specifically, his gamification framework, Octalysis. I was struck by how it provided a problem-solution construct to identify the sort of game, or motivational device, needed to address a particular real-world business challenge.
The eight core drivers that make up the Octalysis are:
Core Drive 1: Epic Meaning & Calling
Core Drive 2: Development & Accomplishment
Core Drive 3: Empowerment of Creativity & Feedback
Core Drive 4: Ownership & Possession
Core Drive 5: Social Influence & Relatedness
Core Drive 6: Scarcity & Impatience
Core Drive 7: Unpredictability & Curiosity
Core Drive 8: Loss & Avoidance
In the years since 2013, when the company was founded, we’ve developed gamification-centric solutions that touch on the core drives in the Octalysis framework for companies like Microsoft, Novartis, Synchrony Financial, and Unilever, among others. Here is a summary of that work and how it’s been applied to help our customers’ employees perform at their best.
Core Drive 1: Epic Meaning & Calling
Our first and most popular game mechanic is narratives. They take the form of races, involving cars, boats and mountain climbing. Yes, in our game you can run up Mount Everest. A number of our customers operate contact centers where literally thousands of employees field queries from customers. It’s tough work. Often in the last hour of a shift employees are drained. The centers handling Microsoft’s Consumer Support Operations wanted their service agents to make or take just one more call. We implemented a narrative game that gave employees a reason to make the effort. More than boosting sales, research among these employees found, as a result of the game, they felt they were part of something greater than themselves, and, importantly, their work made a difference. That’s what the core drive Epic Meaning & Calling is about.
Core Drive 2: Development & Accomplishment
This drive is associated with some tried-and-true game tools. Points, badges and leaderboards head that list. The old PBL’s will still work. But with a decidedly Millennial workforce, adjustments and additions are called for in today’s workplace. The leaderboards we create for customers are designed for maximum interactivity and filtering by each employee/user. Further, we leverage companies’ internal video networks and messaging platforms to showcase the leaderboard in a kind of overtly public manner to please top-performers and prompt others to greater levels. We also include a Kudos feature, a variation on what Yu-kai refers to as High Five.
The effect is the person getting the kudos feels a sense of accomplishment and recognition on top of Social Appreciation.
We’ve found that if we leave a gamification effort to PBLs only, engagement will drop; employees will stop looking at the boards because, more than losing interest, there’s no compelling reason to look. In this case, changing things up a bit, as simple as that may sound, makes a big difference in participation continuity.
Core Drive 3: Empowerment of Creativity & Feedback
Even people who perform repetitive tasks will contend with creative problem solving, the very essence of this core drive. Interestingly, we’ve found many businesses need a number of ways to push this button in the hearts and minds of their employees. As it so happens, we offer game-driven features that relate directly to this core driver. Of note is our real-time feedback.
When employees wonder how they’re doing, they want to know now. A retroactive assessment can actually be a demotivator and, consequently, create a manager-employee relationship problem. Millennials look to their managers as coaches, people who can help improve their skills. If their 1:1 sessions are about stuff in the faded past, coaching can’t happen; confrontation will. Along with that capability, we offer manager messaging, allowing communications with individual team members or the entire group; another way of offering feedback based on need or urgency. Our platform also allows personalized messages to be sent to employees on an automated basis. Consider getting a notification that includes a reminder of a due date but also a digital pat on the back for work done well thus far.
Core Drive 4: Ownership & Possession
I like to call this the pride of ownership drive. When we possess something, we strive to make it better. It’s like the teenager who is forever washing and polishing her/his new, albeit dilapidated, car. In a business context, it’s a little different. There the need to answer WIIFM is an imperative. Once answered, knowing what’s in it for me can be a powerful motivator. I see this as the drive that can truly serve to transform an employee. Once it becomes clear that it’s that employees stats, points, badges, whatever, s/he wants to keep it and will work hard to do so.
This core manifests itself as a competition on our platform that’s about gaining coins redeemable on virtual stores we operate on behalf of our customers. A multinational BPO that provides customer support services conducted just such a game among its many and diverse employees. Given the choice between tangible and intangible rewards – both of which could be delivered to their workstation in moments – these employees overwhelmingly opted for the ones that hold an intrinsic value. They selected accessories to add to their avatars which, not so incidentally, are seen on the company’s leaderboards. It wasn’t that the tangible rewards weren’t appealing. Employees wanted the sheer joy of feeling good about doing something well…or better than their peers…and leveling up.
Core Drive 5: Social Influence & Relatedness
Peer pressure, in a business situation, if managed well can have a dramatic, positive impact on organizational performance. We recognize that in our platform’s ability to put in place challenges that are peer-to-peer or team-based. In addition, our Kudos feature comes into play here. It relates to this drive in that employees can give and get kudos. There’s the social pressure aspect along with friending and mentorship.
Our Kudos includes categories like “You’re a great leader,” You’re Inspiring,” “Thanks for Your Help,” and “You’re Fun to Work With.” This allows employees to give and get kudos to coworkers and managers, and for managers to do the same. I should add, these kudos can include personalized notes. One of our clients used Kudos in this way to build a culture of cooperation as well as to identify the under-the-radar transformative employees, those receiving the most kudos.
Core Drive 6: Scarcity & Impatience
This core centers on the human desire to have something you can’t or don’t have. We leverage that by allocating a limited number of reward prizes in virtual stores. Beyond that, we use it in challenges where there can be only one winner. While that might seem contrary to the desire to improve performance overall or give the impression that everyone has a chance to win, there are work situations where a company really wants to find out who is the very best of the bunch. To add fire to this fury, these single winner challenges, crafted to fit within several segments to allow for more than one victor, are often done within very tight timeframes.
Core Drive 7: Unpredictability & Curiosity
The ice hockey great Wayne Gretsky is known for saying, “You miss every shot you don’t take.” Those seven words brilliantly sum up why unpredictability is a core driver. We want to find out – whatever it happens to be. And, by extension, curiosity has us poking our noses into things that, maybe, we shouldn’t be. In a work environment, employees are often moved by finding out what’s happening next or what needs to be done next. Our platform lets notifications be issued to let employees understand what they should do next in their jobs or to get closer to earning a bonus. Akin to notifications, our system issues what we call Boosters. These are messages that either urge an employee to keep up the good work or work a bit harder – always in a positive, motivational manner.
Another feature we have is User Initiated Challenges. Basically, these are competitions created by individual employees. The wrinkle we’ve put in is making it necessary to “put some skin in the game,” to ante up and either bet on themselves, for individual challenges, or with their peers. To participate in such a challenge, you need to buy in. It makes the challenges far more compelling than if there is little at risk.
Core Drive 8: Loss & Avoidance
As kids we might have done our homework just to avoid a punishment from our parents. Employees often operate the same way. For example, the idea of being able to maintain a streak of some sort, perhaps accumulating points in a process, is a powerful motivator.
At retail, asking sales associates to do what you need them to do isn’t always easy. While they’re competitive, finding the path of least resistance to their bonuses spurs them. Our customer Cellular Sales, a Verizon premier retail partner with 7,000 sales associates, had a problem each time a new iPhone hit the market. Sales of everything but the new device plummeted. Not a good thing for an organization that cannot depend on an unpredictable parade of hit products to drive sales. They used our KPI balance feature with a mix of competitions to help raise new device sales 53% but, and this is important, also raise sales of accessory sales and insurance bundles similarly.
There you have it. Eight real-world examples of how the Octalysis Gamification Framework was applied to the business needs of some of the world’s best and biggest brands. For more information about Centrical, please visit www.centrical.com, email to email@example.com, or call +1-800 538 4263.
About Gal Rimon
Gal founded Centrical (previously GamEffective) in 2013, with the vision of helping companies empower their employees’ performance, making them the center of business success. Prior to that, he was CEO of Gilon-Synergy Business Insight, a national leader in Business Intelligence. In 2010, Gilon-Synergy was acquired for $ 20 million by Ness Technologies (NASDAQ:NSTC) and Gal went on to serve as Senior VP at Ness and was a member of its executive management. Prior to that, he was VP customer relations and operations at Deloitte Consulting. He also worked at EDS and Bashan. He holds an MBA degree in Marketing and Information Technologies from Tel Aviv University.
About Centrical (formerly GamEffective)
Centrical employee engagement and performance management solutions help companies motivate employees to exceed their own goals. It does this by blending advanced gamification with personalized microlearning and real-time employee performance management. Centrical’s platform produces improvements like +12% employee productivity, +20% average deal values, +30% faster onboarding, and +12% customer satisfaction KPIs for multinational.
At its core is a gamified timer to decrease distraction from your mobile phone. In 2015-2016 this simple concept of “Don’t use this device or your plant will die!” was voted Google Best App of the Year. In 2018 it was nominated for Best Social Impact App and 2018 it was Google Play Editors’ Choice for Top Productivity App.
It has over 25 million downloads and over 2 million satisfied paying users. It is also responsible for planting over 600,000 real trees on Earth by their users (Core Drive 1: Epic Meaning & Calling) How does such a simple concept have such success? How do you feel about this short term engagement?
Will it keep you hooked in the long term? Would you pay for it?
It was time to add new items to the Octalysis Prime store to make the gameplay better for new and endgame users alike. So, what did our members come up with in our latest Octalysis Prime Design Challenge?
Based on their thoughtful analysis utilizing Human-Focused Design and aligning that to the business goals of Octalysis Prime, here are the submissions that stood out:
Winner – Iñaki Finalists: Sergio and Olivier
Iñaki created the most items which we could potentially see using on the Island, and we will continue to work with him to see which might be implemented from his Alchemy Set, Hunter’s Mark, Magic Scroll, and Spirits’ Stones. Great work showing how the new items fit into the game loops on the Island.
This post is about how a small design decision to help new and Onboarding members created ripples for Endgame players on the Octalysis Prime Island. If you’re unclear on what certain terms are, try going to octalysisprime.com or referring to the OP Wiki.
An endgame user raises a question and provides a possible solution…
9 days ago Thanks for sharing your idea @Iñaki (teacher). For those who want to optimize their EXP gain with potion planning it would indeed save some time to have it listed directly at the quests.
Let’s make a small design exercise out of it to judge whether it is an overall improvement for the Island! So let’s step into the shoes of the OP Development team and first try to answer these questions about why the quests were invented:
What is/are the Desired Action(s) the Quests are designed to enhance?
There are two DA there. Using something similar to a Magnetic Cap and a Torture Break.You have your coins reward, which is not much but is an extra you can get, so why not ^^
I have tons of money now but I still desire to get them xDIf we analyze the basic player types, we could see what is each one getting from it.
Socializers: Probably the ones getting less from it, as items still don’t have ways of connecting with other users. They could be interested in getting coins to share them with the philanthropist but… probably not much.
Explorers: As coins are the way to get items, if they want to try them they have to get them. They can also get it with the chest. It will also work as a suggestion for them.
Achievers: They want it all, new users will probably watch that videos and more, as they also want to raise and get EXP for that, but they would at least watch those 3, to get the coins.
Killers: More or less the same as the achievers. I would say it is made for all users, but achievers could be the ones taking the most of it. Anyway, despite being designed in a way, it’s being used in many ways. As there are plenty of videos, new users can use it as a guide of what to start with. Old users usually have all the videos watched, then, they stop for a while and when the quest is back, they start another time watching videos.
It gives a suggestion on what to watch and as we want to get the most of those few videos we have to watch, so we study which CDs are more powerful, therefore we can choose how to obtain the most EXP points or how to potentiate the CDs we want. And then, full of potions, we watch them.I think I that now that I see the end of the videos near me, I even wait for the best day to watch those videos. To get the most of it.I hope I could made my thoughts understandable. My head is a little mess right nowI’d love to hear your thoughts @Dirk (edited) Also sent to the channel
8 days ago Before I reply I’d love to hear from other people too. You can also keep it closer to yourself and answer this question:Does the Quest feature make you be more active? If so, what is motivating you?
Frank Parker8 days ago The Daily Quest is a feature that provides a daily goal of viewing 3 videos of the 500 videos available. The daily quest allows for a sense of progress along the way. This is a CD2 mechanism that supports a sense of achievement and progress. When you have finished watching videos, this sense of progress disappears. @Dirk@Iñaki (teacher) The daily quest mechanism also makes selection easier, eliminating the need to decide that might support insecurity. (edited)
Frank Parker8 days ago The daily quest design on the island also supports Explorer types by encouraging a non-linear movement through learning videos. It provides goal-setting for Achievers. (edited)
Frank Parker8 days ago Big disappointment when this shows the first time. It suggests complete. Returning daily to check the Quest Log is a testament to the expectation generated by this feature. I am surprised after completing the videos how excited I get to see the Daily Quest renewed with new videos. I noticed how annoyed many users get that when new videos are available and the Daily Quest log is found empty. It appears to be a bug in the application and breaks the transparency of the quest. This moment usually leads to the discovery that the Daily Quest requires videos from more than 2 categories. This breakdown suggests a break in one’s progress. It also suggests the end.
Peter Hyde5 days ago I agree with @Frank Parker that it is a disappointment when you finish all videos – there should be a big win state. I don’t think it is a bug though, when I posted on this I was told if there were at least three videos available in at least three different areas of the island areas then it would show again. I am waiting for new videos to test this.
Peter Hyde5 days ago I don’t see adding core drives to the daily quests would help. To me, you finish the three videos each day to complete the quest and receive the bonus. I never looked at what the core drives were. Less is more on the interface for me, keep it simple.
5 days ago Thanks for the analyses Iñaki, Frank and Peter! I will give some feedback on your comments and share my own thoughts (note that I joined the team after this feature was implemented, so I’ll be doing some guesswork here).
The main DA the Quests aim to enhance is indeed to watch more video’s. But this does not rely on a Magnetic Cap or a Torture Break. Because you can still watch as many videos you want. This feature falls under GT#35 Quest List, which mostly relies on CD2.
The coin reward is not that much indeed. But if you are brand new to the island and are only collecting Chou Coins from the chest. The Quests will almost double your daily gold income.
Even if you have more Chou Coins than you could ever spend, as you said @Iñaki (teacher), the reward is still interesting. This is partly because you care about Chou Coins and you simply always want to get more (CD4). But probably more because the moment of receiving the reward empowers the win-state and makes you feel accomplished (CD2) your subconsciousness will ‘think’ something like this: “I did it! And I got a hundred Chou Coins, so it means something that I completed this task! I’m awesome.”
Your short analysis, Iñaki, using Bartle’s four Player Types, seems very focused on the reward, thinking about how the Chou Coins would motivate them. You make a fine addition @Frank Parker about promoting ‘non-linear movement through the island’ (CD7) for Explorers and ‘adding goal-setting’ for Achievers (CD2).
For veteran users it becomes a more practical feature. It notifies you that there are again new video’s to watch (serving as a Feedback Mechanic to trigger DA’s) and can direct you to them quickly.I agree with all of you that, after having finished watching all videos, the Quest log can feel like a disappointment. For the few, but very important, veteran users who reach this state there should be an End-Game feature. Like a repeatable quest that can only be done after ‘proving your worth’ by having all the ‘initiate video-watching quests’ completed. (@thechou lets brainstorm about this some time shall we?)
– – – – –
Besides adding the CD2, CD4 and CD7 motivation already mentioned, I think the biggest aim for the Quest Log is to address an anti-core drive.
As with any platform, one of the biggest challenges is to get Onboarding users invested in the experience.
There are over 500 videos on the island, covering a wide variety of topics, spread over many different sections and sub-topics. That is quite overwhelming, it is easy to feel lost, not knowing where to begin.I’m sure many of you have felt this at some point: “I logged on, opened my chest, enjoyed the peaceful tune, but now I’m not sure what to do. What did I watch last time? Should I start a new series? Let’s check on FaceBook first, because this insecurity, that Frank already mentioned, is making me feel uneasy.”But once you got over that first hurdle and watched one video, it is a lot easier to watch a few more. And that is where the Quest Log comes in.
To judge which of the 500 videos is the ‘best’ choice to watch is hard as they are all presented as equal. The Quest Log highlights 3 of them and temporarily makes them ‘better’ than the others because there is a reward attached and it is pleasant to reach a clear goal. So this helps you to get started, after which you are more likely keep going and all the other features can do their thing to get you really invested.So I would say that the main point is to remove the anti-core drive (Anti-CD2) of uncertainty.
– – – – –
To get back to the original question, for the 95% of users it does not add much (or any) motivation to see the Core Drives listed with the Quest videos. As Yu-Kai often says:“
Any feature that does not motivate a DA is a distraction and should be discarded”
Or as @Peter Hyde correctly put it, “less is more on the interface, keep it simple”.
Iñaki Ibargoyen Vergara3 days ago Hey @Dirk, thanks for such a detailed answer. About the Game techniques, I did not mention quest as it is obvious, but I wrote the other 2 GT because, despite not being exactly as they are description the manual. They gave me similar feelings. Maybe because being a Hardcore achiever player.
Magnetic cap: A limit or cap in how many times a user can perform a Desired Action over a certain period
Whenever I do an action I try to get the most of it. If I get time to watch videos but SB is not active, I’ll ask @xiaogou to activate it or wait for him to do it on its own and then start. If I see it active, I take a look at the videos and see if at least 2/3 seem interesting by title. If so I proceed to analyze the CD points, select the potions and now geomons according to my stats and watch the videos.
I could watch more videos , but as I could not get what I wanted from them, I stop doing it.
Similar to what happens with the messages on videos, after the third, with gives no reward, some people stop. I stop after the first, keep the comment on a trello board until I have the SB active and then post one or many.Torture Break: A sudden pause to the Desired Actions for a set duration of time in order to pace the user experience and create more desire to moving forward.
The torture break I though because of the pause, each day doing something instead of watching all the videos in a row as i did when I first started in the island. I entered the core and went out without clouds xD. I almost closed my eyes and could see @thechou face xD. too many hours
I tend to see the GT as a base of what can be applied and not something rigid, but I lacked on explanations back there. I hope my though is more understandable now. Maybe adding the feature as a buyable option or a power could be an idea, this way just who wants it would have it.or maybe seeing the information when you put your mouse on top of it, so it does not works as a distractions for users who do not want it. I see is really complicated to design for all player types at the same time. If I find it hard with 25-30, you having thousands…
Write down the CDs to see how I can optimize my progress
After finding the video I would then need to go to get the potions I need.
Activate the appropriate Geomons.
Go back to the quests and watch them.
At first, the quests were an anti-core drive to others and I, who are not so motivated. The reward to effort level is too high to make effective use of the reward.
The demotivator was the large for the number of steps to make it useful. I was lucky to be paired with @Iñaki (teacher) as a SB added a strong CD 5 and CD 1 Social/Adventure group. if I could cut out steps 2, 3, and 4 (which is grunt work to get to CD3) it would be a great help. I feel adding this feature would inspire others with CD 3 and are of the same player type like Iñaki and I.@Dirk
By the way CD7 random quest without a theme does not inspire me at all. There is usually a purpose for the quest (CD1). Random quests means I have no control of what I undertake. In most games there is a quest list. You want to take the one(s) that further your cause CD1 and CD 3 then at the end of the quest you receive either a random reward CD 7 or a meaningful reward CD 2 and CD 4. (edited)
3 days ago Love the discussion. First thing @Peter Hyde, I believe the system will soon update to – as long as you have one video unwatched, it will show on the Daily Quest. Watching that last video will immediately reward you with the completion bonus. Treat it as a small bonus for finishing ALL the videos, which is definitely no easy feat in any standard.
I’ll have to investigate if we are already developing upgraded communication to showcase the “no more videos” win-state, which should truly feel exciting. This is a classic “anti-climatically win state” and it is there because I did not imagine the scenario where people have ALL the videos watched (some might be in autopilot mode in the background but I’m fine with that as long as they are truly watching many and benefiting/learning from those). I think a good design here would be the first time someone reaches this state, there will be a special treasure box that has something very rare – I have an idea but gonna keep it mysterious for now 😉
3 days ago And you guys are mostly right. When the feature came out, it was for onboarding and early scaffolding users. To be honest it’s funny because we had many blue users who thought they watched all the videos but they just didn’t know they could go to more places on the Island.
So1) this told people “hey you still have unwatched stuff!”
2) reduce decision paralysis (or insecurity being the vocab here?) It worked pretty well, but the funny thing is then people felt disappointed after doing the “work” of finishing the quests, they didn’t get a reward. What?! They watched all these videos and got more educated for nothing?! So that’s where the chest came to play. Then a new interesting problem in behavior happened (OP is such an interesting testing ground on human motivation!). Because it offered coins, people felt like they HAD TO watch those three videos and got pissed that we are forcing them to watch things they didn’t care about (btw, if you see the comments many people were glad they found stuff they never thought to watch too). So then, we added the ability to refresh the list with some coins so you are able to see what you like. (edited) Also sent to the channel
3 days ago Finally, there came a new “breed” of players who really strive to grow into the EXP system and are optimizing for everything. These are our Silver+ Members haha. These are the people who MUST use potions, Success Buddy Bonus, and now Geomon bonus on every video watched, or else they feel like they are losing something (btw, orbs were introduced to make people feel the quantity of videos is not the bottleneck of your exp journey – warning: we may soon cap each video to only be rewatched with exp once a week to retain educational value).
This type of hardcore endgame playing causes someone like @xiaogou who is one of the most internally and intrinsically inspired learner to feel that it was not “useful” to watch the Daily Quest Videos because there are just too many steps that need to be done to find out what EXP is in each video before doing the potion/geomon run. As a result, the “labor” to get those things done was not worth the “reward” and the request is to reduce the labor by just having all the CD points there so they can go straight to doing the potion/geomon combos (which by itself takes time and effort). Isn’t it fascinating how a small simple tool made for beginners to prevent them from being too lost created this entire saga of ripples? That’s what I love about OP and why it exists so we can all learn things that isn’t anywhere else yet 🙂
Iñaki Ibargoyen Vergara1 day ago I’m happy to read this, and thank you all for the comments and the insightful discussion. I love talking about those things, and it helps a lot to the learning process as was shown by @Howie Ju‘s pyramid the other day